Just so sad about what my daughter is going thru.... (girl names, learning)
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A child should be punished for bad behavior, otherwise they grow up to be "bad" adults. "Coping and overcoming" won't change some one else's behavior. Only dealing directly with the situation and explaining in terms they understand that the behavior they are demonstrating will not be accepted will change their ways. Bullies understand strength, adults have strength, children do not.
I agree with you that bullies only understand strength, however, you grossly overestimate the strength/power of the adults in this situation. Think about it, what is the worst that adults can do? Per you we're going to sit down and discuss with them that their actions hurt others. Really? Lord knows they've been bullying people all this time not realizing they've been hurting others . Following that revelation they're just going to stop.
As for kids not having strength, that is absolutely incorrect. The bully has the strength to hurt physically and emotionally. It may be a peer, but they have that strength. They also have the strength via hurting the peer to make all the adults run around and have meetings and discussions. They understand that and the only way they are going to stop is when that strength is taken away. Unfortunately, adults really don't have the power to do that. As long as other kids (victims) give the bullies the strength to hurt them, it won't stop.
More evil than what many bullies nowadays do (which, yes, is a 100 times more aggressive and sophisticated than the "meanie" things kids used to do to each other in the past) is this attitude of downplaying, minimalizing and failing to understand the gravity of this downright grotesque issue of our times.
To me, people who think like this should be dealt with first.
Oh, so I'm going to be lined up with all the 10 year old bully "criminals" and have my scourge wiped from society....
Sorry, to say, but your post is merely reinforcing media fed hysteria over an issue that is no worse than it ever was and in some ways is even less than it was. I find it funny that you think children these days are far more aggressive and sophisticated than they were in the past. We all know 30 or 40 years ago bullying didn't go beyond saying someone was "smelly" and giving them wet-willies.
The simple fact that you would use words such as "qrotesque" shows that you have little real understanding of the situation. Despite what the media chooses to portray, kids haven't suddenly become sadistic little demons that prey upon each others suffering causing the poor legion of victims to take their own lives.
Since you feel that I and people like me that offer a solution of reinforcing and teaching the victim how to handle the situation themselves are part of the problem, what's your solution?
Unfortunately, we can't drag all suspected bullies out into the street and put a bullet in them, which is what it seems some of you are angling for.
I agree with you that bullies only understand strength, however, you grossly overestimate the strength/power of the adults in this situation. Think about it, what is the worst that adults can do? Per you we're going to sit down and discuss with them that their actions hurt others. Really? Lord knows they've been bullying people all this time not realizing they've been hurting others . Following that revelation they're just going to stop.
As for kids not having strength, that is absolutely incorrect. The bully has the strength to hurt physically and emotionally. It may be a peer, but they have that strength. They also have the strength via hurting the peer to make all the adults run around and have meetings and discussions. They understand that and the only way they are going to stop is when that strength is taken away. Unfortunately, adults really don't have the power to do that. As long as other kids (victims) give the bullies the strength to hurt them, it won't stop.
Completely hypothetically, not advocating for this in the real world - but if the parents of the bullies suffered a stiff monetary penalty over the actions of their bully children, they'd find a way to stop it pretty quickly, I'd imagine.
I think NJGoat's point though is the kind of bullying that is "simply" (for lack of a better word) verbal snipes done out of earshot of parents or other adults (which is typically the kind of bullying practiced by teen girls), how does one even prove it is happening? It is "he said, she said"....and who's to know who is telling the truth in the matter? Then what? How do you impose a penalty on parents of kids when you can't prove anything?
I think NJGoat's point though is the kind of bullying that is "simply" (for lack of a better word) verbal snipes done out of earshot of parents or other adults (which is typically the kind of bullying practiced by teen girls), how does one even prove it is happening? It is "he said, she said"....and who's to know who is telling the truth in the matter? Then what? How do you impose a penalty on parents of kids when you can't prove anything?
Bingo...
Bullying is not a black and white issue, nor is bullying black and white. It is many shades of gray. There is the overt phyiscal bullying, then there is the subtle verbal/action bullying and there are many forms of both inbetween.
Phyiscal bullying represents a major issue, but it is also the easiest to police and create actionable punishment against. Verbal comments, or even exclusion bullying are far more pervasive and are also next to impossible to control. That is also the kind that seems to have the longest lasting implications for kids. Unfortunately there is no way to fix that kind of bullying. You can't punish someone for gossipping, spreading rumors or not inviting someone to a party.
I posted a little "situation" earlier that was generally ignored or written off as an underhanded attack on another poster (which it wasn't) and that is the kind of situation that exists and causes the most damage particularly among girls. However, it isn't necessarily overt bullying. One girl accusing another of being gay or spreading a rumor that she sleeps around that gets picked up by a group of people or sometimes even the whole school can make life a living hell for the target. However, there is pretty much nothing that someone can do to change that situation for the target, other than the target themselves. This is also the type of bullying that has been going on for ages with no real solution, call it a part of life if you will. We all deal with people saying things about us or thinking negatively of us, even if they don't have cause.
I think a lot of people in this thread equate all bullying with criminal behavior and take it as a severe issue no matter what form it takes. Frankly, that type of "zero-tolerance" reaction is ineffective and unrealistic. Some people even take that stance to the point of becoming passive-aggressive bullies themselves.
If we take this all the way back to the beginning, the OP's situation is that there are a group of girls who are saying things about her daughter and generally teasing her and gossipping. The OP themselves picked up on the fact that her daughter doesn't like confrontation and won't stand up for herself to these girls. Nor is she able to simply ignore them. If you're the teacher/principal/counselor at the school, how do you in good conscience punish the gossip queens? The entire situation is he said she said. Are you going to punish the girls for talking? Are you going to fine their parents because their kids gossip? Sorry to say, but the OP's daughter getting upset and crying doesn't constitute a criminal act by the people who made her cry.
It doesn't change the fact that it hurts, but the fact that it hurts is also what's driving the bullying to continue. The only practical solution is for the OP's daughter to learn how to handle conflict and deal with these types of situations. Which is the point I and others have been making all along.
The thread ballooned to a conversation about bullying in general and the theory of the victim learning to handle the situation themselves holds true for almost all situations outside of over the top threats or acts of physical injury, like in a 5 on 1 fight. So, yes there are times that outside intervention is needed, but that is the 1%, not the 99%.
I agree with you that bullies only understand strength, however, you grossly overestimate the strength/power of the adults in this situation. Think about it, what is the worst that adults can do? Per you we're going to sit down and discuss with them that their actions hurt others. Really? Lord knows they've been bullying people all this time not realizing they've been hurting others . Following that revelation they're just going to stop. I said in terms they understand. I suggest those who bully get taken behind the woodshed.
As for kids not having strength, that is absolutely incorrect. The bully has the strength to hurt physically and emotionally. It may be a peer, but they have that strength. They also have the strength via hurting the peer to make all the adults run around and have meetings and discussions. They understand that and the only way they are going to stop is when that strength is taken away. Unfortunately, adults really don't have the power to do that. As long as other kids (victims) give the bullies the strength to hurt them, it won't stop.
Of course adults have more power then children. Don't have meetings or discussions. Remove the bullies from the situation. Send them home. So it's the victims fault. Instead of punishing the violator, blame the victim for her/his behavior. I'm sure the op's child deserved to be bullied because of what she was wearing.
You're funny. Maybe you're angry because I didn't get any more sense out of your pitbull story than you did out of my African story. Maybe it was your sarcasm. I don't know, but I thought your pitbull story was crap, so we're even.
You missed totally the message that was conveyed in my 'charming little story'. Helicopter parents usually are deffensive because they don't want to have to admit they are wrong.
Ah, typical behavior from a bully. I won't agree with you so you call me names such as helicopter parent. Next, I suppose you will call me smelly and give me an internet wedgie.
Of course adults have more power then children. Don't have meetings or discussions. Remove the bullies from the situation. Send them home. So it's the victims fault. Instead of punishing the violator, blame the victim for her/his behavior. I'm sure the op's child deserved to be bullied because of what she was wearing.
Well to your first part, we can't "take them out behind the woodshed". Corporal punishment isn't in vogue these days and most people have strong feelings about other adults physically punishing their kids. So, we are left with non-violent means for adults to attempt to control the situation. Judging by how most people around here feel about things like spanking, I don't think you'll find much support for beating them. Of course, I wouldn't be suprised if even virulent anti-spankers were OK with beating bullies. They'd kind of be like the pro-choice, anti-death penalty people.
As to the rest of it, it's pretty much drivel. You aren't offering a solution, just saying, well the bully should be removed the situation. So, we're going to send home all the kids who say mean things about other kids? That seems like a real effective plan.
As for the OP's daughter, no she shouldn't be bullied/teased over what she wears, what she looks like, anything at all really. However, it's not about "changing" her or not letting her be who she wants to be. It's about teaching her to be confident in herself and handle conflict so that she is comfortable and secure with who she is. When she's confident enough to no longer be upset over what people think of her clothing choices, they won't bully her about it anymore. A lot of forms of bullying are really nothing more than a game for the bully. It's fun to push the buttons and get a rise out of people. When the bully is either confronted or the buttons no longer work, the game ceases to be fun.
My dad was in the military and we moved around constantly. We generally lived off-base; on the one hand, it was cool, because we got exposure to life outside the bases, and a lot of military brats have a tough time adjusting to life offbase when their parents retire or they leave home for school.
....
I wonder what I'm going to do when I have kids, I really do. I'm not terrified of the spectre of having or raising them, but I am terrified of what's going to happen when they go to school and how I should raise them. I know what worked for me, but I feel like in this day and age, it'll just get us a lawsuit :/
This made me chuckle as our situations, seperate the details were very similar.
It's an interesting observation reading through this thread that the folks generally advocating for the child needing to learn to deal with the situation themselves are also the ones who are willing to share personal details about their experiences and how they got through it, which pretty much universally involves them standing up for themselves.
It makes me wonder if the people in the other camp that are advocating for increased punishment, changing of schools and involvement of everyone from the teacher to their congressman were ever bullied. It also makes me wonder (and I get the feeling this is true) that they were also most likely the ones who never learend to deal with it on their own and suffered in silence. Hence, not having learned to deal with the situations on their own, or not until they were adults where the dynamic is different, they are incapable of teaching their kids and choose to rely on others, mainly the schools, to solve the issue for them.
Old personal wounds that have scabbed over are easily opened when we see our children suffering and struggling with similar problems.
This made me chuckle as our situations, seperate the details were very similar.
It's an interesting observation reading through this thread that the folks generally advocating for the child needing to learn to deal with the situation themselves are also the ones who are willing to share personal details about their experiences and how they got through it, which pretty much universally involves them standing up for themselves.
It makes me wonder if the people in the other camp that are advocating for increased punishment, changing of schools and involvement of everyone from the teacher to their congressman were ever bullied. It also makes me wonder (and I get the feeling this is true) that they were also most likely the ones who never learend to deal with it on their own and suffered in silence. Hence, not having learned to deal with the situations on their own, or not until they were adults where the dynamic is different, they are incapable of teaching their kids and choose to rely on others, mainly the schools, to solve the issue for them.
Old personal wounds that have scabbed over are easily opened when we see our children suffering and struggling with similar problems.
I was thinking the same thing when I was reading this thread the other day.
Who hasn't been bullied or teased at some point in their childhood?
When I was in grade school, I was teased by kids in my neighborhood. We were walkers because we lived close to school. My name was condusive to nasty nicknames. And I wore purple coat which made me different from everyone. When we were walking home, they'd call me nasty names and make fun of my coat. Trust me, I told my mother. I always confided in her. She always gave me great advice. Did my mother start walking me to school? Did my mother start driving me to school? No way! She told me how to deal with it and I did. I didn't fight them or respond with equally nasty stuff. I simply didn't let them know it bothered me. Within a week, they stopped.
We were all childhood friends throughout growing up. The teasing came and went in cycles. They teased everyone. It's what they do. There wasn't anyone who couldn't take it. It was just part of the banter of being kids who hung out in a neighborhood together. We all liked each other. They could say nasty stuff to each other, but defended each other when someone who didn't live in our neighborhood said something at school. These were real childhood friendships---like our own little gang even though we weren't a gang. We just had each other's backs because we spent our lives growing up together, respect each other.
Fast forward to 8th grade. There were these two 9th grade girls who were big and mean, from the hard part of town, who decided they had it out for me. I had accidently run into them when I was ranning around a corner when the late bell range for class. I said I was sorry, picked up my books and continued to run to class.
They started to come to the hallway where my locker was located to intimidate me every chance they got. This was an empty hallway---where the lockers weren't being used. A big group of my friends and I had moved all of our lockers to this empty hallway so we could see each other between classes.
One morning, they showed up and were standing at the end of the hall. This had been going on for weeks. Until this morning, I had ignored them and pretended they weren't there. This morning was different because I decided it was time for it to end.
I commented to my friends that they were there. I closed my locker to go up to them. My friends asked me if I wanted them to come with me. I said no, stay here, I'll go by myself. I knew that the illusion of confidence was MUCH MORE POWERFUL than having a big group of friends come with me.
(I can't stress enough that these were TOUGH girls. I was tall and skinny. One of them was fat---huge tough girl fat. The other wasn't fat but solid muscle for a girl. And they were both from a very rough neighborhood. I was from a wimpy affluent suburb.)
I walked right up to them. Two feet away, I stared them in the eyes and asked them, "Can I help you? Do you want me for something?"
Guess what happened? NOTHING! Nothing happened! They left!
Everyone in school heard about it. I could have had my butt whipped. I knew it. Everyone knew it. There's something to be said for having the courage to face odds like that.
Which reminds me of my one girlfirend's theory: people are more afraid of crazy than they are tough. She'd put herself up against incredible odds---the sheer lunacy of her crazy little self standing up to people scared the hell out of the toughest. She never got into a fight. Why? Most of the time she scared people, thinking she was crazy. When she didn't scare them, she could run like the wind. Yeah, that was her second part of the theory: when crazy fails, run like hell! LOL It worked for her! LOL
I wasn't a tough girl. I was nice to everyone. I'd do anything for anyone. But I understood the importance of appearing confident when it mattered most. It didnt' change who I was. I was still the same person inside. Parents who say that their children shouldn't have to change for bullies aren't helping their children. A child doesn't need to change to overcome bullies. They just need to learn the social skills and coping skills.
Last edited by Hopes; 04-05-2011 at 09:21 AM..
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. Following that revelation they're just going to stop.
