Why doesn't oklahoma city schools have shelters? What a joke. (Tulsa: loans, buying)

[okie1962]

Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge

If the neighbor's house lands on the door to your shelter, what are you going to do? Use your cell phone to call for help? (Cell towers in the area are gone, remember.)

We have search and rescue. They really do know to look in all areas.

[okie1962]

Originally Posted by SD4020

So is every other town in the Midwest.

Name one other town that has been hit as hard as Moore?

[DC at the Ridge]

Originally Posted by Globe199

Heh, perhaps, and obviously you're splitting hairs. But Moore is DEAD CENTER in the highest probability area for significant tornadoes:



Eagerly awaiting your next easily-refuted dodge.

I've been reading the obituaries of the people who died in Moore this past Monday. While to you this may be an exercise in abstract gamesmanship, to others it is not. I live in tornado alley. I've had tornadoes strike within a mile of where I live, where I work. I, like every other person, have budget constraints that govern whether I will or will not have a storm shelter. I live in the real world. You're not debating about the real world. You're debating about a world with unlimited resources, and how those resources should be appropriated. In a world with limited resources, people make decisions not based on the mere possibility, but on genuine risk. Moore, OK may be located in an area with the highest probability for significant tornadoes. But EF5's are still exceedingly rare, like a 9.8 earthquake is exceedingly rare, and the Moore tornado didn't obliterate the entire town. 55,000 people. 54,700 neither injured nor killed. If those 54,700 people on the average represent families of 3, and for each family a storm shelter is built at a cost of $5,000 (which is a reasonable cost, I've looked into installing one at my own home), that's $91,166,666.00. Where is that money supposed to come from? What do these people decide they don't need to pay for these shelters? Don't need schools, hospitals, fire departments, police departments, what? Public policy is based on efficacy. It's not based on your proposition that all risks, no matter how remote, should be eliminated.

[DC at the Ridge]

Originally Posted by okie1962

Name one other town that has been hit as hard as Moore?

Tell me how the children in those two schools, that received a bulls-eye hit from an EF5 tornado, overwhelmingly survived without the enormously expensive storm shelters that would be required to house 500+ students and faculty.

[okie1962]

Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge

Tell me how the children in those two schools, that received a bulls-eye hit from an EF5 tornado, overwhelmingly survived without the enormously expensive storm shelters that would be required to house 500+ students and faculty.

My High School had a basement that we all could fit in. Most older schools in Oklahoma have one. The school down the street from where I live has a basement.

Having a basement is insurance. Do you not have house insurance because 99.95% of the homes in NWA have not caught on fire?

[DC at the Ridge]

Originally Posted by okie1962

My High School had a basement that we all could fit in. Most older schools in Oklahoma have one. The school down the street from where I live has a basement.

Having a basement is insurance. Do you not have house insurance because 99.95% of the homes in NWA have not caught on fire?

My house has a better chance of catching on fire than of being hit by a tornado. And my insurance covers me in either event, as well as in numerous other circumstances. So, while it's nice for a school to have insurance, I note that you didn't answer the question. If the school needed shelters to insure the survival of the students, how did 99.9% of the students survive without those shelters when their school was hit dead-on by an EF5 tornado?

[SD4020]

Originally Posted by okie1962

Name one other town that has been hit as hard as Moore?

The Joplin tornado in 2011 killed 162 or 158 people, depends which list you look at. Greensburg Kansas was nearly wiped off the map in 2007. Spencer South Dakota was completely destroyed in 1998, they rebuilt. Manchester South Dakota in 2003 totally destroyed, nothing there but foundations. The Alabama outbreak in 2001. The sum of the Alabama fatalities was 348, storm related.

[Globe199]

Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge

My house has a better chance of catching on fire than of being hit by a tornado. And my insurance covers me in either event, as well as in numerous other circumstances. So, while it's nice for a school to have insurance, I note that you didn't answer the question. If the school needed shelters to insure the survival of the students, how did 99.9% of the students survive without those shelters when their school was hit dead-on by an EF5 tornado?

Simply because they survived this tornado doesn't mean they would survive a different tornado under different circumstances. Maybe they just got lucky this time. I'd argue that you're taking a bigger risk when you don't have a shelter. You want to disagree, fine. So be it.

As for the cost of shelters, well, we spend about a trillion dollars yearly on defense in this country. Don't tell me we don't have the money.

[DC at the Ridge]

Originally Posted by Globe199

Simply because they survived this tornado doesn't mean they would survive a different tornado under different circumstances. Maybe they just got lucky this time. I'd argue that you're taking a bigger risk when you don't have a shelter. You want to disagree, fine. So be it.

As for the cost of shelters, well, we spend about a trillion dollars yearly on defense in this country. Don't tell me we don't have the money.

Maybe the people who were injured or who lost their homes were simply unlucky.

Yes, having a shelter would negate some of the risk. No one has argued that it wouldn't. What's been argued is the level of risk, versus the cost to negate that risk. If I have a one in 2 million chance of EVER being hit by a tornado, and I can't afford the high cost of the shelter, it doesn't make me a risk-taker. It makes me someone who can evaluate risk and value. And the shelters don't guarantee me survival in an EF5 tornado. They are often made to withstand winds up to 200 mph. The Joplin EF5 had winds exceeding 300 mph.

[okie1962]

Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge

My house has a better chance of catching on fire than of being hit by a tornado. And my insurance covers me in either event, as well as in numerous other circumstances. So, while it's nice for a school to have insurance, I note that you didn't answer the question. If the school needed shelters to insure the survival of the students, how did 99.9% of the students survive without those shelters when their school was hit dead-on by an EF5 tornado?

Where do you come up with 99.9%?

At Tower Elementary School, 75 children and staff were present when the tornado struck. Nine fatalities have been confirmed at the school. I think I come up with 12%. Or 88% lived.