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It's fact that Ohio received a lot of white Appalachian migrants starting in the WW2 era who came to work in factories and since deindustrialization has long since been underway , with many places never having fully recovered from it to my knowledge , it would make sense for there to be many white ghetto neighborhoods to still be existing especially in mostly white cities like Toledo and Dayton ...
So which cities ( if any ) in Ohio have white ghetto neighborhoods that are mostly inhabited by white people of Appalachian extraction ? Which specific neighborhoods are those and how dangerous are they compared to their non white counterparts ?
Also this may be best suited for a separate thread , but are there a lot of white people of Eastern European descent among Ohio's white urban poor ? I'm asking because it's also a fact that Ohio to this very day has a rather large population of Polish , Hungarian , Slovenian , etc. , descended people many of whom used to work in the same industrial occupations as their Appalachian counterparts so it would make sense for many of them to occupy the same position and inhabit the same neighborhoods as their Appalachian counterparts .
Oh and FWIW I'm actually thinking about making a compare and contrast type documentary about poverty/social exclusion among people forming the ethnic/racial majority in various parts of the world , which is part of the reason why I'm posting this question .
East Dayton and the Twin Towers neighborhoods in Dayton are still pretty rough (and white). Springfield has similar neighborhoods on its west side, but they tend to be more mixed-race. Both towns are heavily Appalachian. I expect some of those parts of Dayton to gentrify soon, especially Twin Towers, since more people and businesses are moving into the surrounding districts.
I don't think those of Eastern European descent are as comparable. They've blended into the rest of the state's white middle & upper classes...just look at the names of our recent politicians (Kucinich, Voinivich, Kasich, etc). Not to be disparaging, but most Appalachians don't tend to be as upwardly-mobile.
This will be a little long. I recommend reaching out to departments with areas concerning urban studies, especially at Wright State and University of Dayton. The Ohio State University would be another good resource for the state as a whole.
Example neighborhoods that had been prevalent in Dayton when I was growing up in the eastern suburb of Beavercreek from 1990-2008 and again at University of Dayton from 2011-2013 would include many city proper east side neighborhoods. Twin Towers, Walnut Hills, Belmont, Linden Heights and Eastern Hills were major working class enclaves with heavily white populations. These areas were made of of numerous business corridors on major streets inside the following boundaries. Contrast that with Dayton's west side neighborhoods, many of which were Black, and a major dichotomy existed in the city. Though that isn't to say that some neighborhoods on one side versus the other were void of the other racial makeup.
Neither side was particularly crime heavy until a few major factors (as well as many smaller more nuanced ones) began to affect Dayton proper in the late 60's and through the 70's, 80's and 90's. That is not saying there were not racial tensions in my mind, but each side lived and let live. Of course, as you will see below, that came racial integration point came to a head during these decades.
Those major factors included industry leaving the region, either for overseas, Mexico or sunbelt states. Consolidation of white collar businesses, especially in the 90's and 2000's hurt as well. Mead Corporation was bought and moved out. Reynolds and Reynolds struggled until being bought and turned to private ownership. NCR left. Another factor was mandatory busing requirements in Dayton Public Schools, which led to even more integrated schools, made many white parents flee Dayton proper. The forced busing (usually thought of as having students in one neighborhood be bused across town to another neighborhood so school racial equality could be achieved) resulted in white flight, a phenomenon that led to a boom in suburban populations in places such as West Carrollton, Miamisburg, Centerville, portions of Kettering, Huber Heights, Vandalia, Englewood and Beavercreek among others. Finally, many fled Dayton as drugs, especially crack cocaine, became prevalent and led to an increase in crime. Essentially, if you had the means to leave, you usually did. What hurt black families most was lack of resources available (many probably could afford to move with what they had, but lack of loans from banks due to discriminatory lending to minorities and lightly enforced housing rules to work against discrimination likely prevented this). But what was interesting is many parts of eastern northern Dayton remained white, though poor.
Some of the neighborhoods outlined were still decent places to live. Many Belmont streets were and still are well maintained and house retirees, pensioners and those that outright own their homes. Belmont would not be mistaken for Oakwood (an older streetcar suburb that is considered an old money suburb by history), but it certainly was better than Twin Towers or areas north of the freeway (US-35) and west of Smithville Road, were poverty was much more prevalent. Essentially, the residential streets east of Smithville into Mad River Township (now the city of Riverside) as well as the Belmont neighborhoods were working to middle class neighborhoods, many with home owners or renters who had steady well paying union jobs on lines at Delphi or General Motors.
These neighborhoods were all hit very hard with foreclosures as people lost jobs en mass when General Motors and Delphi closed (GM's Moraine Assembly closed in Dec. 2008) or cut back from what was probably tens of thousands of local workers at one point to maybe a few hundred (Delphi closed whole plants and operations by 2009). The result was many people leaving, including plant neighborhoods hit hard in northeastern sections of Kettering and Riverside, and even into more working class neighborhoods in Beavercreek and West Carrollton.
Today, these neighborhoods west of Smithville as well as the Linden Avenue corridor would still be places to be cautious in, though many of the Appalachian residents are being displaced by other immigrant communities. While more recent since I last lived in the Dayton area, my understanding is some of the corridors are becoming more Hispanic-oriented communities. East Dayton and Riverside now have a handful of Latin Groceries. While not the inlfux of immigrants that is seen in Texas, the western US or even the southeast (i.e. Atlanta), there is still a slowly expanding community. What I would be interested in is seeing where the Appalachian residents are going? Some move out into the suburbs with mixed results. Huber Heights and West Carrollton are not the same level of wealth as Centerville or Springboro (another affluent suburb further south between Dayton and Cincinnati). Are they leaving poverty with those moves? Are they staying local but still have at or near poverty rate incomes? Or are they leaving the area all together and where are they going?
One last note because you mentioned Hungarian residents... This population, especially Eastern European, was most prevalent in Cleveland, Akron and Youngstown regions of Northeast Ohio. However, Old North Dayton was a hub for the Hungarian community for a long time, before mostly being resettled with other newly arriving or impoverished Americans. Outside of the Amber Rose restaurant in Old North Dayton, there is not much Hungarian history left here. Today, the neighborhoods is home to a small but vibrant Turkish (and now Syrian as well I believe) community. I agree with Natural's comments about many of the Eastern European immigrants moving upwardly into middle and upper echelons of the American life. That's true whether you are in NYC or Middle America.
And yes, I recommend finding a copy of Hillbilly Elegy. While based in the small industrial city of Middletown, much of its Appalachian residents' plights translate to the portions of East Dayton that I mentioned.
And while Dayton has certainly turned a corner, I also recommend a Frontline and ProPublica PBS-aired (PBS is the US non-profit Public Broadcast Station) documentary on Left Behind America, which focuses on Dayton in episode 18 during the 2018 series/season. Personally, the city has come a long way between 2008 and 2018 (more than the documentary allows, in my opinion), and even more since then in 2019 and into 2020. But some of the points it makes, such as the poverty rate, which becomes even more jarring when you look at development in and near downtown versus outer urban neighborhoods let alone the disparity between Dayton itself and the wealthier suburbs, is pretty relevant even in 2020.
Hope that helps from an anecdotal perspective. I do recommend, as I said, to check with local colleges and universities. And the state's flagship school in The Ohio State University and the state's historical society may be able to provide more research or documentary worthy sources.
It has not been my personal experience that Ohio cities are over run with a huge amount of "Hillbillies".
I have met people who live outside of my small city, in shabby small towns, and country areas, the names of which I'd prefer not to mention, with some denizens who call themselves "Hillbillies" with a mixture of jocularity and pride.
Ohio cities in the Northeast, appear to be full of a few sorts of people - descendants of the Connecticut Western Reserve, the first Europeans to live in Ohio. They are mainly White Anglo Saxon Protestants. Others in NE-OH include the decedents of Italian and Eastern Europeans - Poles, Slovacs, Ukrainians, Romanians, Russians, Lithuanians, Latvians and others, Greeks, Albanians, Germans, Scandinavians, Jews and African Americans who arrived during the Great Migration. There is also a Latino population, Ethiopians, Thai and East Indians.
The decedents of country people from Appalachia have brought their religious sects with them - Church of the Nazarene, Southern Baptist, Assemblies of God, Church of God, and other Pentecostal sects. There are reportedly some snake handling churches in the area, Of course they do not advertise that. The only state where that is legal is West Virginia. You can also here a southern accent in some residents who live in the country.
I am not sure if the migration of residents of West Virginia, Kentucky, and Tennessee are still migrating here, since the steel industry as well as the automotive industry, are pretty much dried up in this area.
East Dayton and the Twin Towers neighborhoods in Dayton are still pretty rough (and white). Springfield has similar neighborhoods on its west side, but they tend to be more mixed-race. Both towns are heavily Appalachian. I expect some of those parts of Dayton to gentrify soon, especially Twin Towers, since more people and businesses are moving into the surrounding districts.
I don't think those of Eastern European descent are as comparable. They've blended into the rest of the state's white middle & upper classes...just look at the names of our recent politicians (Kucinich, Voinivich, Kasich, etc). Not to be disparaging, but most Appalachians don't tend to be as upwardly-mobile.
Do you know which specific neighborhoods in East Dayton are mostly White Appalachian and poor ? I'm asking because there doesn't seem to be a specific neighborhood called East Dayton in that city ...
This may come off as a bit of a weird question , but can it be said that the Outlaws Motorcycle Club has ( in a roundabout way at least ) left a significant cultural influence on poor/working class White Appalachians in Ohio , if not the entire Rust Belt , the same way certain prominent African American entertainers with shady ties have left on their communities ?
I'm asking because I just found out that David Allan Coe ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Allan_Coe ) was born in Akron and used to be a member of the Outlaws and since that fellow is considered the godfather of outlaw country music ( a genre closely associated with poor/working class whites in the US ) it begs the question of whether the most prominent outlaw motorcycle club in the region has left behind a legacy within the community that ( arguably anyways ) sprung many of their members much like certain LA street gangs have with certain African American and Hispanic entertainers who have become very prominent and influential ...
Also would it be wise for me to start up a separate thread in this forum concerning the socioeconomic status of present day Eastern European descended Americans in Ohio ? Or should I keep addressing that topic in this thread ?
The Mahoning Valley (Youngstown, Warren, Columbiana and surrounding communities) is overrun with uneducated, drug addicted hillbillies and first or second generation Eastern Europeans. Many of them moved to Ohio from places like Western Pennsylvania, Kentucky, WV, and Tennessee to work the now defunct steel mills and factories.
You asked about ghetto "Appalachian" neighborhoods but I can name enclaves (read cities, townships, populated areas and villages) that are white ghettos full of dilapidated homes, drug abuse, mob activity, corruption, crime, out of wedlock children, and poor educational achievement. There is quite a bit of motorcycle culture and white supremacist activity in these areas as well, though again it goes unreported.
Dayton and Akron both have a lot of white trash neighborhoods.
Some of the worst I know of:
Campbell - A dump and a huge mob town with a long history of car bombings, murders, gambling and other "rackets" spilled out from Campbell and permeated the entire area for years. The culture of Campbell is crime.
Warren and all of Trumbull County really - Not sure where to begin on this one. The entire county is a cesspool dump. The people are grossly uneducated, racist, and backward. Very hickish. Very filthy surroundings, dilapidated buildings and housing stock (city and rural). Not sure of the exact number but the county is almost all white percentage wise. The actual city of Warren should be razed to be honest. There isn't any redeeming quality to it. The city is comprised of mostly white dope addicts and biker gangs many of whom live in trailer parks or trashy neighborhoods they don't keep up. Not sure how many of them graduate high school but most are unemployed and on some sort of government assistance to live. The city is pretty segregated but the black citizens are blamed for the cities condition. The culture is government assistance, drugs, drugs, more drugs, guns, hunting, conceal and carry, blaming the government, uneducated kids who won't do better than their parents, out of wedlock children, crime, and more drugs. There are a lot of racists and motorcycle gangs there. The place is very dirty and smells like garbage. I couldn't wait to leave. It's very run down and looks like a garbage truck threw up. They live like pigs.
The outlying areas of Trumbull County like Burghill, Johnston, and Braceville, Hartford, etc. are rural and pretty surreal. They're like places time forgot. The people are racist, backward, and mostly impoverished. They blame the government for their problems when many of them don't work, don't finish school, and don't seem to aspire to much in life. Lots of drug abuse out in those areas. People in their 20s and 30s who look like they're in their 50s for drug use. The way many of them live is unbelievable--falling apart trailer homes, houses hoarded with junk and garbage, houses that are literally falling apart inside and out from no upkeep. There are areas out in those places that are horror movie material, especially when you get off into some of the backwooded areas off the main beat.
East Liverpool - Very troubling area with a very high poverty rate. Lots of crime and of course drugs. Lots of out of wedlock children without Dads and working age men and women sitting around all day not working. Same thing with blaming the government, foreigners, and "others" for getting some supposed advantage that white residents don't get.
The culture of blaming the government, blaming others who supposedly are getting free handouts while you yourself receive quite a bit of government assistance to live on, and feeling sorry for yourself is passed down in these towns. When you speak to these folks everything is doom and gloom and don't seem to have an motivation to try to change their lives.
The Mahoning Valley (Youngstown, Warren, Columbiana and surrounding communities) is overrun with uneducated, drug addicted hillbillies and first or second generation Eastern Europeans. Many of them moved to Ohio from places like Western Pennsylvania, Kentucky, WV, and Tennessee to work the now defunct steel mills and factories.
You asked about ghetto "Appalachian" neighborhoods but I can name enclaves (read cities, townships, populated areas and villages) that are white ghettos full of dilapidated homes, drug abuse, mob activity, corruption, crime, out of wedlock children, and poor educational achievement. There is quite a bit of motorcycle culture and white supremacist activity in these areas as well, though again it goes unreported.
Dayton and Akron both have a lot of white trash neighborhoods.
Some of the worst I know of:
Campbell - A dump and a huge mob town with a long history of car bombings, murders, gambling and other "rackets" spilled out from Campbell and permeated the entire area for years. The culture of Campbell is crime.
Warren and all of Trumbull County really - Not sure where to begin on this one. The entire county is a cesspool dump. The people are grossly uneducated, racist, and backward. Very hickish. Very filthy surroundings, dilapidated buildings and housing stock (city and rural). Not sure of the exact number but the county is almost all white percentage wise. The actual city of Warren should be razed to be honest. There isn't any redeeming quality to it. The city is comprised of mostly white dope addicts and biker gangs many of whom live in trailer parks or trashy neighborhoods they don't keep up. Not sure how many of them graduate high school but most are unemployed and on some sort of government assistance to live. The city is pretty segregated but the black citizens are blamed for the cities condition. The culture is government assistance, drugs, drugs, more drugs, guns, hunting, conceal and carry, blaming the government, uneducated kids who won't do better than their parents, out of wedlock children, crime, and more drugs. There are a lot of racists and motorcycle gangs there. The place is very dirty and smells like garbage. I couldn't wait to leave. It's very run down and looks like a garbage truck threw up. They live like pigs.
The outlying areas of Trumbull County like Burghill, Johnston, and Braceville, Hartford, etc. are rural and pretty surreal. They're like places time forgot. The people are racist, backward, and mostly impoverished. They blame the government for their problems when many of them don't work, don't finish school, and don't seem to aspire to much in life. Lots of drug abuse out in those areas. People in their 20s and 30s who look like they're in their 50s for drug use. The way many of them live is unbelievable--falling apart trailer homes, houses hoarded with junk and garbage, houses that are literally falling apart inside and out from no upkeep. There are areas out in those places that are horror movie material, especially when you get off into some of the backwooded areas off the main beat.
East Liverpool - Very troubling area with a very high poverty rate. Lots of crime and of course drugs. Lots of out of wedlock children without Dads and working age men and women sitting around all day not working. Same thing with blaming the government, foreigners, and "others" for getting some supposed advantage that white residents don't get.
The culture of blaming the government, blaming others who supposedly are getting free handouts while you yourself receive quite a bit of government assistance to live on, and feeling sorry for yourself is passed down in these towns. When you speak to these folks everything is doom and gloom and don't seem to have an motivation to try to change their lives.
Would you say that White Appalachians and Eastern European descended white people make up a roughly equal amount of the lower class white population of that area ? Or is one group more numerous among said populace than the other ?
Thanks for the answer by the way !
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