Do a lot of cities in Ohio still have a lot of mostly White Appalachian ghetto neighborhoods ? (Cincinnati: school, university)

[sheena12]

I am going to speak up for my city - Warren. The City of Warren is far from perfect, but it is a nice place to live. As with any city, it has good parts and not so good parts. It has history, culture and people who deeply care about it's well being.

Fist of all WARREN is in Trumbull COUNTY - a county in Connecticut not Kentucky.

I was asked to do some research about Warren and it's demographics.

The original settlers from Connecticut brought their Yankee culture and folkways with them, as well as their religions. Down town Warren's culture and heritage can be read like a book, and the stately churches tell the story so well. From Connecticut came the Congregationalist Church (United Church of Christ). The beautiful Presbyterians Church with it's imposing spire, and the mid century designed, Episcopalian Church. The three religions that are solidly upper middle class, WASPy, support education, the arts and volunteer works.

There is one Fundamentalist church in Warren (as opposed to out on a highway) and that is North-Mar Church of the Christian and Missionary Alliance. This Denomination is NOT Appalachian, it is headquartered in Nyack NY. The Disciples of Christ is Evangelical and is native to this region. I am sure "Hillbillies" attend both Central Christian and North-Mar, but neither were planted by Appalachians.

We have An active society culture here, that includes groups such as The Junior League, and the American Association of University Women. We have a country club, that is as sedate, and understated as any east coast country club. Find that in a "ghetto".

Next to arrive, through Cleveland of NY were the German and Scandinavian Lutherans. None of these groups came from Appalachia or by any stretch of the imagination are "Hillbilly".

Methodist Churches are all over the US, making them more difficult to categorize. In Warren City, one First Church, just closed, and another appears to be about to close. Some Methodists I have met self identify as Hillbillies. Same with Disciples of Christ.

Also down town is a Byzantine Catholic Church. Warren also has a Greek Orthodox Church.

North Rd. has some newer Eastern Orthodox churches. A little out of the center city, but in a nice area. Romanian, Slavic, and Eastern European churches; The Roman Catholic Church is also located outside of the DT area but in a nice part of the greater Warren area. The Eastern Europeans did NOT arrive via Appalachia nor did the Catholics.

The "Hillbilly Footprint", if your will, can be found outside of the quaint down town Warren area on Parkman Rd. Not so quaint. Church of the Nazerene, Assemblies of God - and least five, Church of God, and other independent Fundamentalist and Evangelical Churches are on the unkempt rural outskirts of town.

These are the churches responsible for some small Christian Schools, one connected to the very conservative and Pentecostal Pleasant Valley Church, which always has political and bible signage on Church property. (Rt,11, S)

Since Warren city is about 1/3rd Black, and Appalachians like to fly their confederate Flags, very few live inside of the City of Warren. They live in the more rural outskirts. West past a few farm stands is the Delightful Evangelical Church, for example, a church name that sounds as though it was picked from a Southern Gothic novel.

One thing Hillbillies are NOT is urban. They like their land. Preferably, without sidewalks.

I'll speak for Warren - After the Great Migration of African Americans to Northern Cities, and after WWII, self proclaimed hillbillies seemed to settle in the following areas of Trumbull and Mahoning - NONE of these are cities by any stretch of the imagination -

Leavittsburgh

Braceville,

Parkman

Campbell.


and in Mahoning, Austintown, to some degree. All Lily White and filled with the descendants of the Scotch Irish hill people.

The decedents of the Western Reserve, (people from Connecticut and points East) still live in Warren. Not all of course, but many. The decedents of the Eastern, Central Europeans, and Southern Europeans, also live in Warren, and Howland. Both groups remain upwardly mobile and are community minded. They are apt to send their children to college, rather than celebrate the pregnancy of their 16 year old daughters.

While the Hillbillies make moonshine, drink it on Saturday nights, and repent on Sundays. I went to my first Hillbilly wedding a few years back. They toasted with pop, and served a non-alcoholic punch to drink. Men walked around with flasks and asked guests if the wanted their punch or pop spiked. I've been to many weddings with open bars, but never have I seen people as drunk as this. The food was the type of thing you'd see at a church luncheon. Tuna and Chicken casseroles, deviled eggs, chips and salad with Ranch. The wedding cake was a sheet cake.

The Hillbillies do not in general live in Warren proper. The live in the hamlets mentioned up thread, in trailer homes, and dilapidated houses.

PLEASE do not blame WARREN for Hillbilly Ghettos.

[censusdata]

Originally Posted by dustin183

Appalachian means people from Appalachia.

In context Appalachian means a White working class person from the southern half of West Virginia into Kentucky, and Tennessee. Pittsburgh is also in Appalachia but has a different culture than rural Eastern Kentucky. A lot of people in KY and TN from west of the mountains also migrated to Northern cities and would be lumped into they definition despite not actually being from Appalachia. There are also Black people in Southern Appalachia who migrated north, but in this context that's not what the OP is talking about.

The OP's Appalachians differ from White Midwesterners in coming from a region with limited education, public roads, and a mostly rural community. Coming from areas that lacked any police force they would instead solve disputes with fights.

[abbottkd71]

I am trying not to be deeply offended by this discussion, but I’ll be honest, I’m failing miserably. My ancestry is rooted in the hills of Eastern Kentucky, and I’m proud of my “hillbilly” stock. In the late 1930s, my grandparents moved to Dayton where they eventually settled and raised a family. While they could be a little rough around the edges, they were fine people who worked very hard to give their children a good start in life. My mother went to nursing school, eventually finishing her MSN, and had a very successful career in critical care medicine. I did not follow her into nursing, but I also earned a graduate degree. My children are currently enrolled at university, pursuing their own degree paths. We don’t carouse around town nor do we settle arguments with flailing fists. We are a quiet, well-educated, professional family, living in an affluent suburb of a major city. For three now going on four generations, our careers, annual incomes, and lifestyle have been the very definition of upward mobility. This thread’s less-than-subtle condemnation of Appalachians and their descendants as little more than gutter snipe is, frankly, shameful.

[sheena12]

Originally Posted by abbottkd71

I am trying not to be deeply offended by this discussion, but I’ll be honest, I’m failing miserably. My ancestry is rooted in the hills of Eastern Kentucky, and I’m proud of my “hillbilly” stock. In the late 1930s, my grandparents moved to Dayton where they eventually settled and raised a family. While they could be a little rough around the edges, they were fine people who worked very hard to give their children a good start in life. My mother went to nursing school, eventually finishing her MSN, and had a very successful career in critical care medicine. I did not follow her into nursing, but I also earned a graduate degree. My children are currently enrolled at university, pursuing their own degree paths. We don’t carouse around town nor do we settle arguments with flailing fists. We are a quiet, well-educated, professional family, living in an affluent suburb of a major city. For three now going on four generations, our careers, annual incomes, and lifestyle have been the very definition of upward mobility. This thread’s less-than-subtle condemnation of Appalachians and their descendants as little more than gutter snipe is, frankly, shameful.

Did you read "Hillbilly Elegy"? If not, I highly recommend it. As with your family, the writer did well for himself, attending university, becoming a scholar on the subject of Hill People (i.e. Hillbillies) and their transplant decedents, as well as a conservative pundit. It's a well written book, and most of it reads like a novel.

Since he comes from this background, what he has to say might sting less. I think it would interest you, also. It's been a while since I read the book, but the author, who's same escapes me, posits that certain behaviors and attitudes are prevelent among folks from Appalachia, and that even when they relocate, they take these attitudes with them. These folkways are neither good nor bad. They just exist. Some of them were customs that were ingrained in them from their country of origin.

For example, being suspicious or "clannish" could have helped with survival, both abroad and in this country.
It can be negative when it's directed at education, medicine, and people who look different from one's self.

I am glad to hear that you, and your family have done so well.

The people I have met here in Ohio, who are very PROUD of their Hillbilly Heritage and call THEMSELVES "Hillbillies" are different from you. The friend who invited me to her teenage son's wedding was a Radiological Technologist and held the equivalent of an associate degree from Trumbull Hospital when they trained techs and nurses. Her husband had a BS in education from Ohio Christian College.

I was some what uncomfortable with the way she constantly called herself and her family "Hillbillies", and especially, White Trash, which I saw as a pejorative comment. but they were [proud of their heritage.

[sheena12]

Originally Posted by censusdata

In context Appalachian means a White working class person from the southern half of West Virginia into Kentucky, and Tennessee. Pittsburgh is also in Appalachia but has a different culture than rural Eastern Kentucky. A lot of people in KY and TN from west of the mountains also migrated to Northern cities and would be lumped into they definition despite not actually being from Appalachia. There are also Black people in Southern Appalachia who migrated north, but in this context that's not what the OP is talking about.

The OP's Appalachians differ from White Midwesterners in coming from a region with limited education, public roads, and a mostly rural community. Coming from areas that lacked any police force they would instead solve disputes with fights.

Some Appalachians are not working class. They are down right poor.

Our handyman and his family, FOUR GENERATIONS of them, live in a dilapidated trailer, in a run down (I am being nice, here, mobile home park well on the outside of the city of Warren.

More of these Mobile "homes" are rusted out skeletons, with smashed windows and missing doors.

The one he lives in with his Mee-Maw (grandmother) wife, daughter, AND her two children - is barely habitable. Everyone in this trailer park is originally from West Virginia, Kentucky, or Tennessee. As he tells it, it was built over 50 years ago, or more, for people who came up from Appalachia to work in the steel mills.. When some of them made a little money, they bought or built small houses. in Braceville and Leavittsburg.
Many others returned to Appalachia.

These people do stick together, and they have strong bonds with their kin.

The clash with northern Midwestern values is especially evident in this region in terms of formal education.

For anyone interested in the subject, I suject "Hillbilly E;egy" by JD Vance https://www.amazon.com/Hillbilly-Ele...HK2BGTCYKX8KAZ

[Formerly Known As Twenty]

Originally Posted by censusdata

In context Appalachian means a White working class person from the southern half of West Virginia into Kentucky, and Tennessee. Pittsburgh is also in Appalachia but has a different culture than rural Eastern Kentucky. A lot of people in KY and TN from west of the mountains also migrated to Northern cities and would be lumped into they definition despite not actually being from Appalachia. There are also Black people in Southern Appalachia who migrated north, but in this context that's not what the OP is talking about.

The OP's Appalachians differ from White Midwesterners in coming from a region with limited education, public roads, and a mostly rural community. Coming from areas that lacked any police force they would instead solve disputes with fights.

Which I agree with to a degree, but being originally from Appalachian Ohio (yes, thirty-two counties in Ohio are considered to be within Appalachia, with some counties being more what one would consider to be classically Appalachian than others), I can tell you that where I'm from is a world away from northeastern Ohio.

My parents, who moved there from NE Ohio in the mid 'sixties to teach, experienced some serious culture shock when they moved to the area. They had rural students who were cleaner in the summer than in the wintertime due to the fact that they didn't always have running water in the home.

More than a few local families from where I grew up have been there since before Ohio achieved statehood. It's not atypical for backroads to be named for the families who live on and near them.

In my home county, the accent of the people from the southern portion of the county differs from that of the people who live in the northern end of the county. Pretty much everyone is related by blood, marriage, or associations through work and/or church. Calling someone a *insert name of telephone exchange of the southern portion of the county* has long been a pejorative.

There is a local police force, so it's not as rural as some of the other hill counties, but it's a world apart from the more urban parts of the state that has far more in common with neighboring West Virginia and Western Pennsylvania (which is more Appalachian that one might think once you're outside of the immediate Pittsburgh metro) than with Cleveland, Columbus, Akron, or even Canton, which is the closest city of any size nearby.

All of this aside, I'm proud to be a child of Appalachia. The people from back home and the area can have their drawbacks that I'll not go into here, but there are also a lot of good, honest, hardworking folks there with enviably strong extended family connections. Because the area has just enough jobs and is commuting distance to Canton, it's not as poor as some and people haven't moved en masse to larger cities, but a lot of people barely squeak by.

[tallydude02]

Although Upstate New York typically isn't thought of as a part of Appalachia, there are some parts that are certainly Appalachian-esque areas, even extending into Vermont and New Hampshire. Also the Pennsylvania-New York border has some interesting areas as well specifically around Binghamton.

[skeddy]

Originally Posted by sheena12

Did you read "Hillbilly Elegy"? If not, I highly recommend it. As with your family, the writer did well for himself, attending university, becoming a scholar on the subject of Hill People (i.e. Hillbillies) and their transplant decedents, as well as a conservative pundit. It's a well written book, and most of it reads like a novel.

Since he comes from this background, what he has to say might sting less. I think it would interest you, also. It's been a while since I read the book, but the author, who's same escapes me, posits that certain behaviors and attitudes are prevelent among folks from Appalachia, and that even when they relocate, they take these attitudes with them. These folkways are neither good nor bad. They just exist. Some of them were customs that were ingrained in them from their country of origin.

For example, being suspicious or "clannish" could have helped with survival, both abroad and in this country.
It can be negative when it's directed at education, medicine, and people who look different from one's self.

I am glad to hear that you, and your family have done so well.

The people I have met here in Ohio, who are very PROUD of their Hillbilly Heritage and call THEMSELVES "Hillbillies" are different from you. The friend who invited me to her teenage son's wedding was a Radiological Technologist and held the equivalent of an associate degree from Trumbull Hospital when they trained techs and nurses. Her husband had a BS in education from Ohio Christian College.

I was some what uncomfortable with the way she constantly called herself and her family "Hillbillies", and especially, White Trash, which I saw as a pejorative comment. but they were [proud of their heritage.

I agree. Hillbilly Elegy should be read by those that want to become more familiar with the history of the area. A segment of the population is proud of ignorance and poverty and embraced that way of life. Nothing wrong with that if it works for you.

[abbottkd71]

Yes, I’ve read Hillbilly Elegy, more than once, and I am familiar with Middletown and the people who live there. I’ve also heard Vance speak. His account of his life is compelling, but it’s his family’s story, not mine, and it makes me uncomfortable for the same reason this thread does. It perpetuates the idea that Appalachians and their descendants are doomed to live in poverty. That’s simply not true.

We are now four generations beyond those intrepid seekers who came to Ohio, Indiana, and Michigan to pursue a better life. Many of us whose grandparents and g-grandparents came north to work at GM and NCR and Delco and others in the years after WWII have gone on to join the professional ranks. We are your suburban neighbors whose kids are headed to college to study business and arts and engineering and international affairs and medicine just like yours. Only our surnames betray our Appalachian roots and sometimes not even that.

The OP came looking for evidence to support his conclusion that the descendants of Eastern Europeans are more successful than those of Appalachians, and you all fell over yourselves giving credence to his bigotry. Why? I am not ashamed of my hillbilly grandparents, and I’m very grateful for the opportunities their hard work and sacrifice afforded me. More importantly, I am hardly a purple unicorn. There are many others out there just like me.

[tallydude02]

During my time in Columbus, the most dysfunctional people I met were native Ohioans with no ties to the hills. Of course that was just my experience but I thought it was funny when Kentucky was the butt of jokes from those same people.