Is Cleveland Similar to Cincinnati (Columbus, Hamilton: live, cost, garden)

[JoeP]

I moved to the Detroit area from Cleveland over 20 years ago. While I think many Michiganians, at least metro Detroiters have a negative view of Ohio (i.e. "flat", "boring", "backwards", "small-town mentality", etc), I heard several people say "Cleveland isn't really Ohio". Meaning they saw Cleveland in a better light than the rest of the state.

That's amazing to me. Michigan is the smaller state in population....

[masterwood89]

Originally Posted by nickolaseposter

From an outside perspective and someone who has seen the cities and seen them well within the past months, I will take Cincinnati's side by far. Cincinnati's plan may not cost as much...but perhaps that is St. Louis' problem to begin with? Your'e spending $5 Billion on something that doesn't even look that great. Cincinnati is spending 1/5 of that and the results already pass St. Louis. I'm sorry...but I just think there is something about Cincinnati that is more recognizeable than St. Louis. The arch is cool and all...but that is the only thing people know about St. Louis. People know Macy's and Procter and Gamble and Great American are based in Cincinnati. They are very familiar, nationally, with the city, more than theyare with St. Louis. MTV is doing yet another show this summer taking place in Cincy and there alot of random music videos and movies being filmed there. On top of this, the Banks project is ranked the best, not one of the best, THE best waterfront redevelopment in the country right now. Some of the highest noted architects and urban planners (some of which came from U. of Cincy which is one of the best city planning and architecture schools in the world) are in on this project. Not only this, Cincinnati actually has alot of high end and upscale stores, nightlife, and just got a new tallest skyscraper. I haven't heard of St. Louis building any new 700 foot towers in the past few years. And I am sure there is no Saks Fifth Avenue or Tiffany's in or near the urban core.

First of all let me say that this arguement is pointless no one is going to win because goat314 and I are St. Louisans and love our city and you all love Cincinnati. Stalemate.

Second I just want to clear up something in your post Energizer, Anheuser-Busch, TUMS, Purina all headquartered in St. Louis so I think Cincinnati isn't more well known in that regard.

[blowingdown]

I've been to St. Louis recently. As I walked out of my downtown hotel after a hangover (I had a great time downtown at night btw), I walked to get some ibuprofen. Keep in mind it's a Saturday afternoon. No one was open within 3 blocks. I had to walk into a different hotel and purchase some ibuprofen at the gift shop.

The downtown neighborhoods of STL top out at 3 stories, and that's downtown proper. The redevelopments to the south of the CBD are kinda cool, kinda not, but I appreciated the effort by STL nonetheless. The northside is just a disaster. The riverfront cannot compete with Cincinnati in any sense. There ARE plenty of vacants from the heyday of St. Louis around the downtown area. But if you've ever been to Cincinnati, you would have noticed how much more connected the buildings are, even with the serious blight in Cincinnati, and the height of the buildings exceed the typical 2 story row in St. Louis. Cincinnati's surrounding areas are very dense as well. STL reminds me of Pittsburgh in the sense that they both have similarities to Cincinnati, but neither ever had an area as densely built as OTR and Cincinnati's West End.

[masterwood89]

Originally Posted by blowingdown

but neither ever had an area as densely built as OTR and Cincinnati's West End.

Actually St. Louis did have areas that were extremely dense, but unlike OTR they don't exsist anymore. Carr Square, Columbus Square, Kerry Patch, Mill Creek all were pushing density around 30-40k and all have fallen to failed urban renewal. St. Louis was almost twice the population size of Cincinnati in the almost the same amount of land so saying that St. Louis didn't have dense areas like OTR and West End back in the day is ridiculous.

[PhillytoCincy]

Originally Posted by goat314

1. Cincinnati has loss more population than St. Louis this decade by percentage and raw numbers. A smaller city losing more people.

Cincinnati - 296,943 (2010) 331,285 (2000) - 10.4% loss or 34,342
St. Louis - 319,294 (2010) 348,189 (2000) - 8.3% loss or 28,895

2. Cincinnati is part of the larger Hamilton County giving it a competitive advantage over St. Louis which is an independent city with no county backing. Let's remember that Cincinnati has nothing like Clayton, MO (the region's 2nd downtown and seat of St. Louis County). St. Louis has to rely on itself to get things done.

3. Saying that Downtown St. Louis has not had any major projects going on is simply a lie. Downtown St. Louis has been going through one of the most impressive revitalizations in the country. Over $5 Billion in revitalization in the past decade. Mostly on the Washington Avenue loft disrict.

http://www.downtownstl.org/docs/St.%...acts_v1012.pdf

Let's not also forget that downtown has City Garden and The City Museum (both have been nationally recognized).
Also the Arch just had a international competion and will be undergoing a renovation that will cost hundreds of millions.


4. Why do you think that St. Louis doesnt have any rehabilitation going on even in North St. Louis?
Ever heard of the Old North St. Louis Restoration Group?
There 14th St. Revitalization was nothing short of amazing.
Old North St. Louis Blog » 14th Street Mall

Not to mention numerous other places in South St. Louis and the Central Corridor.

I'll admit that I've spent limited time in Cincinnati, but I was never under the impression that you guys were doing so much more than St. Louis. Again I could be wrong, but everything you have mentioned about Cincinnati is presently going on in St. Louis if not on a larger scale. As we speak there are numerous major projects going on in the city of St. Louis (especially Downtown) that have not been stalled by the economy.

I'm still confused as to why you believe Cincinnati is a cosmopolitan version of St. Louis?

Hamilton County does not help out Cincinnati anymore than St. Louis county helps out St. Louis. What does Clayton have to do with anything? If anything, that takes more out of downtown St. Louis. You want to bring in other areas outside of downtown, lets talk about that disgrace across the river East St. Louis and compare that to Covington and Newport, they are literally worlds apart from eachother. Not to mention Cincinnati and Covington/Newport have riverfronts that actually work together.

Cincinnati is a smaller city, yes, but once again, like I said before, they are much closer together in population now than they ever were. St. Louis declined much more rapidly from its peak.

Once again, I have been to downtown St. Louis plenty of times. I never once said NO projects were happening, I just said that much more was happening in downtown Cincinnati and downtown Cincinnati is more active. Everyone lays claim to how much money is spent on development, but the important thing is, how well they are actually integrated in with the city itself.

The funny thing is, you sit there and continue to say these things happening in St. Louis are happening on a larger scale, which is completely wrong. The things happening in Cincinnati are actually of greater magnitude. I was recently in St. Louis back in January, so I think that is pretty recent enough, eh? You even said you have spent limited time in Cincinnati, so how would you know how large our projects here are compared to yours? I was there a month and a half ago, so I can compare the two. None of Cincinnat's major projects have been stalled out because of the economy either. As I stated before, Cincinnati's economy is actually quite healthier than St. Louis'.

This is not even about St. Louis, so why is it even being brought up? It is in a completely different state that is worlds different than Ohio, and a competely different city than Cincinnati. I don't see anyone from Cincinnati going to the Missouri forum and discussing in a thread how much "better" Cincinnati is than St. Louis compared to Kansas City.

[PhillytoCincy]

Originally Posted by JoeP

That's amazing to me. Michigan is the smaller state in population....

Ya, and Ohioans don't have the best image of Michigan either lol. I never understood the rivalry until I moved here, but now I see. If you ask me, with the amount of Michiganders moving down here, Ohio must not be that bad to them.

[Peregrine]

I moved to the Detroit area from Cleveland over 20 years ago. While I think many Michiganians, at least metro Detroiters have a negative view of Ohio (i.e. "flat", "boring", "backwards", "small-town mentality", etc), I heard several people say "Cleveland isn't really Ohio". Meaning they saw Cleveland in a better light than the rest of the state."

I say this all the time. Cleveland doesn't belong in Ohio. But not because it is better or anything. But because NEO is completely different then the rest of the state. Much more rooted in industry then Col or Cincy or really anywhere else. The Cleveland area feels much more urban then most of Ohio while the rest of the state seems more rural.

[1watertiger]

imo the reason cleveland feels like a bigger metro than the other 2 c,s is because of its infrastructure, freeways, transit system, street-grid, etc. were built for a population of 5 million in mind.

[cali3448893]

Originally Posted by Peregrine

I say this all the time. Cleveland doesn't belong in Ohio. But not because it is better or anything. But because NEO is completely different then the rest of the state. Much more rooted in industry then Col or Cincy or really anywhere else. The Cleveland area feels much more urban then most of Ohio while the rest of the state seems more rural.

I can tell you any city in Ohio belongs in Ohio nut if i had to choose a city that does not feel like ohio i would pick cincy: why because Cincinnati is more southern, on the corner edge of ohio, influenced by different people, architecture is diiferent....and yes i am responding to a thread a year old haha

[jbcmh81]

Originally Posted by AGuyFromCleveland18

I've never really been to Cincinnati, but from a historical perspective and a size and demographic perspective they seem very similar. Both have major sports teams but have a metro area of around 2 Million people. Both are about the same age. Both are former industrial cities, with similar problems. But there are definitely a lot of differences. I've heard cincinnati's population is a bit more insular than Cleveland's, and also I know that the city has more southernness about it than cleveland, and it's obviously less liberal. What do you guys here on the ohio forum think?

I definitely feel like the Cincinnati area is more conservative, specifically its suburbs, which are still some of the strongest Republican counties in the state outside of the northern Miami Valley. However, Cincinnati itself seems to be turning more Democratic and liberal based on recent elections. I've also heard that Cincinnati is more provincial, but I have no idea if that is true or not. I've not spent enough time there to really get a feel for that one way or another. I also think Cincinnati has a much less diverse population than Cleveland. Cincinnati's economy is better.