Any way to avoid the sprawl? (homes, live in, move)

[tysonsengineer]

Originally Posted by Mnseca

I'm not sure what "sprawl" means to you, OP. You mention considering a townhouse, but you won't find one of those anywhere but a suburb, which is sprawl. However, some sprawl is prettier than other sprawl. I wonder if you would be OK with a compromise like Burke or West Springfield - clearly it's totally suburbia and part of the sprawl, but it's wooded and has some areas that feel almost rural. Take a look - just to see if you would consider it - at Newington Forest and other areas surrounding the CCT and Pohick Stream. It would have to be a townhouse in your price range, of course. If you don't like that, then you can pretty much write off all of inner NoVa as too suburban, but I think you should at least take a look at it before going as far out as some of the places you are considering.

Hehe, its so funny because sprawl has such different meanings. I see Springfield and Burke as the epitome of sprawl. Large tracts of residential land use with almost no offices or retail to be found (I lived there for 25 years).

Townhomes aren't suburban sprawl by nature, after all the derivation of the word townhome comes literally from a home in a town, ie in an actual place rather than rural (or the modern adaptation of suburbia). Places that do townhome well that aren't sprawl, unfortunately are really expensive because there are so few areas in this country that have that. In this area it is even more rare, essentially just DC/Arlington and to a far smaller extent possible McLean and Falls Church. Everywhere else is sprawl. It's those giant green parks that in my opinion create some of the sprawl problem. I know that will sound like utter nonsense to some people, but by most planning standards it is true.

Then again I hate contrived pseudo wilderness so perhaps its just me.

[RamblingMan]

I think the Moyaone Reserve in PG County would be a great option for you.

Moyaone is a community in Maryland just across the Potomac from Mount Vernon. It was originally founded as a conservation easement to protect the view from Mount Vernon. It is located against Piscataway National Park. Lots are a minimum of 5 acres (many are larger) and heavily wooded. Development is very restricted. You cannot subdivide your land and you need permission from the National Park Service to cut down a tree over 6" in diameter. With these restrictions, the community is always going to feel rural. I have a few friends who live there, and I gather there's a pretty strong community. There are still a number of working farms there.

I don't know how the Accokeek schools are specifically, but this shouldn't matter much if you are planning to homeschool. The Moyaone Reserve is about five miles south of where I live in Fort Washington. I can drive to downtown DC in 25 - 30 minutes (outside of rush hour) and I suspect that Moyaone would add about 15 - 20 minutes to that (It is only 5 miles south, but involves some back roads). I think there is a commuter bus from Accokeek, but I don't know any details.

The good news for you is that houses in the Moyaone reserve usually sell for very reasonable prices. I think you could get a three-bedroom fixer upper on five or more wooded acres for well under your 400K price. In that price range, it would probably be something architecturally boring, like a 1960s rancher. There are some very interesting mid-century modern homes in the community, but I think the prices would probably be higher.

If you google Moyaone Reserve, you'll get some background on the area and see what's available. Like anyplace, it involves compromises, but it is truly an exceptional community --the exact opposite of urban sprawl and cookie cutter communities. If your priority is really rural feel within reasonable commuting distance of DC at under $400k, I don't think you'll find anything that compares.

[pcity]

Originally Posted by tysonsengineer

It's those giant green parks that in my opinion create some of the sprawl problem. I know that will sound like utter nonsense to some people, but by most planning standards it is true.

Then again I hate contrived pseudo wilderness so perhaps its just me.

Around Burke/West Springfield?

The biggest parks are centered around waterways. You've got Burke Lake and Lake Accotink as well as the Stream Valley parks and the parks along the Occoquan. The "giant green parks" in that part of Fairfax County have the benefit of protecting wetlands and get a ton of recreational use as well.

[gomason]

Originally Posted by tysonsengineer

Hehe, its so funny because sprawl has such different meanings. I see Springfield and Burke as the epitome of sprawl. Large tracts of residential land use with almost no offices or retail to be found (I lived there for 25 years).

I guess if you mean West Springfield. Central Springfield has more retail than the vast majority of NOVA.

[tysonsengineer]

Originally Posted by gomason

I guess if you mean West Springfield. Central Springfield has more retail than the vast majority of NOVA.

Define retail. Cardinal Plaza? Rolling Valley Mall? Commerce Drive? I'll atleast say commerce drive is ok in terms of retail but the problem is ever since the mixing bowl that area has been choked to death. Any decent retailers left long ago.

Most of the "natural parks" around Springfield and Burke are centered around road buffers and electrical lines. Highways disconnect the entire area, good luck getting anywhere without a car. Those are the kinds of elements that I consider sprawled. Others may see sprawl in a place like Rosslyn-Ballston, I see that as good design that actually includes humans and has good parks that are the appropriate size without making it impossible to get to them without a car.

So sprawl is a subjective thing.

Burke lake might be the one exception to a decent natural park, unfortunately it is impossible to get to for most residents by foot... and its barely in Springfield/Burke mostly split by the parkway, route 123.

[stpickrell]

In other words, are you defining sprawl as "a place where retail, parks, and non-residential areas are entirely inaccessible by foot from an individual's house?"

(I'd also rate anything more than say a mile beyond any non-residential use as sort of sprawly as folks won't walk more than 0.25-1 miles even if there's sidewalks the whole way, ditto for anything where you have sidewalks leading up to ... a large car-centric strip mall.)

If so, I can agree with that statement as it is less "how DARE the non 5%ers live in a SFH" as opposed to "how DARE governments force developers into car-centric patterns?" (this I agree with.)

So you can have larger yards like the SFH areas along North Street and areas of Leesburg close to Market or King, SFHs with smaller yards like Old Town Winchester, and rowhouses like downtown Frederick.

Most of the Acela corridor (New England, New York, PA, MD) development WAS around the village/town center.

You'd have a mixed-use downtown, a residential area that started life as an "original suburb" of the downtown (typically built from the 1860s to the 1920s), an original industrial area usually to the east of the downtown, then a circle of smaller strip malls sprinkled in among/outside the "original suburbs", then mid-century residential ... only then did you start seeing the highways getting built and the things people more commonly associate with sprawl (huge strip malls, 4-lane and more highways, and an inability to get to anything BUT other houses from an individual house.) The advent of the cul-de-sac had a paradoxical effect -- while individual streets within the cul-de-sac area are safer, the arterial roads got more crowded as it became impossible to get from one cul-de-sac development to the other.

Of course in some cases the smaller strip malls themselves got redeveloped -- the site of the Loudoun County Government Center had a small strip mall with an A&P and a drugstore, the site of what is now Leesburg Plaza (the shopping center with the Giant on Route 7) was originally the Leesburg Airport before Arthur Godfrey got in on the act in the early 1960s. In other cases, the industrial areas got redeveloped -- Harrison Street in Leesburg and East Street in Frederick were the original industrial zones for those cities.

[tysonsengineer]

Originally Posted by stpickrell

In other words, are you defining sprawl as "a place where retail, parks, and non-residential areas are entirely inaccessible by foot from an individual's house?"

(I'd also rate anything more than say a mile beyond any non-residential use as sort of sprawly as folks won't walk more than 0.25-1 miles even if there's sidewalks the whole way, ditto for anything where you have sidewalks leading up to ... a large car-centric strip mall.)

If so, I can agree with that statement as it is less "how DARE the non 5%ers live in a SFH" as opposed to "how DARE governments force developers into car-centric patterns?" (this I agree with.)

So you can have larger yards like the SFH areas along North Street and areas of Leesburg close to Market or King, SFHs with smaller yards like Old Town Winchester, and rowhouses like downtown Frederick.

Most of the Acela corridor (New England, New York, PA, MD) development WAS around the village/town center.

You'd have a mixed-use downtown, a residential area that started life as an "original suburb" of the downtown (typically built from the 1860s to the 1920s), an original industrial area usually to the east of the downtown, then a circle of smaller strip malls sprinkled in among/outside the "original suburbs", then mid-century residential ... only then did you start seeing the highways getting built and the things people more commonly associate with sprawl (huge strip malls, 4-lane and more highways, and an inability to get to anything BUT other houses from an individual house.) The advent of the cul-de-sac had a paradoxical effect -- while individual streets within the cul-de-sac area are safer, the arterial roads got more crowded as it became impossible to get from one cul-de-sac development to the other.

Of course in some cases the smaller strip malls themselves got redeveloped -- the site of the Loudoun County Government Center had a small strip mall with an A&P and a drugstore, the site of what is now Leesburg Plaza (the shopping center with the Giant on Route 7) was originally the Leesburg Airport before Arthur Godfrey got in on the act in the early 1960s. In other cases, the industrial areas got redeveloped -- Harrison Street in Leesburg and East Street in Frederick were the original industrial zones for those cities.

This is a very good post. I think Leesburg is a great example of a town center that isn't sprawled. Unfortunately the farmlands that used to be around it...

[stpickrell]

Originally Posted by tysonsengineer

This is a very good post. I think Leesburg is a great example of a town center that isn't sprawled. Unfortunately the farmlands that used to be around it...

Yep -- Exeter is starting to get too far from non-residential uses, and you've got Battlefield Parkway going through it. (You've also got a collection of cul-de-sacs running around out there.) Then you've got scads of car-centric developments outside Battlefield/the bypass.

Frederick has much the same thing. Of course the thing is things that make an area sprawly are often attractive to families, especially when one or the other party grew up in the suburbs and regards sprawl as The Way It Has To Be.

(For what it's worth, there's a number of sprawl-like areas of Arlington, too especially in the far northern reaches.)

[spencgr]

Originally Posted by stpickrell

Yep -- Exeter is starting to get too far from non-residential uses,

So my question is not argumentative, but strictly informative...when was Exeter close to non-residential uses?

[stpickrell]

Originally Posted by spencgr

So my question is not argumentative, but strictly informative...when was Exeter close to non-residential uses?

Never, I used my wording to refer to "the start of the sprawl-y areas."