Relocation Info Request for CNY and WNY (New York, Buffalo: real estate, city hall)

[WILWRadio]

Hello everyone. I am looking for some honest feedback concerning the development of a small business and relocation to a suitable community in New York. It’s a pretty complex issue with a variety of factors that have to be taken into consideration before I can make a decision. I am hoping that I can get some solid advice and relevant information and opinions from the people that live or have experienced the region of NY that I am researching.

The region I am looking at is Central NY and Western NY. Eastern NY and downstate are not options for myself and my business partner. Right now I am researching and considering Rome, Ilion-Herkimer, Oswego and Dunkirk-Fredonia.

The business is going to be a small community oriented radio station. Full Service radio very much like AM 1340 WENT in Gloversville. AC Oldies format with news, sports, weather and community information etc. Not a large corporate entity but a Mom and Pop operation with a limited broadcast radius of a couple of miles or perhaps a bit more. We need a city or town with a sense of community and a reasonably healthy Mom and Pop business district. Corporate owned businesses are not likely to advertise on our radio station. We also need to be in a community that does not really have a local station to serve the area and if it does have such a station the market needs to be big enough to support a second local station or the other local station(s) would have to be owned and programmed by corporate owners with syndicated fare and not live and/or local. The station will also be a training ground for aspiring broadcasters. The communities listed above seem to meet the initial list of criteria.

Now for the challenging part. In addition to the above criteria I also need to find the following in my potential new community.

1) A City Hall that will not try to insinuate itself into a Federally regulated business. I ran into a problem in a small village in Orleans County a few years ago when the corrupt City Hall tried to regulate my business out of existence even before it got off the ground. I’d like to avoid this again.

2) Some job opportunities in town or in a nearby city. Syracuse and Buffalo seem to fit the bill and to a lesser extent, Utica.

3) My business partner has a mixed marriage. He’s a Caucasian from Alabama and his wife is a Native American from Nebraska. We’ll need a place that will welcome them. I am from Connecticut and don’t perceive too many cultural differences in NY like I’ve found in my current area in the Midwest.

4) I am a Conservative/Libertarian (not Republican) and my business partner leans more to the left. We need a place that will be open minded and accept different social and political beliefs.

5) A community that welcomes new business concepts and is small business friendly. Rome seems to be fairly good in this respect. Not sure about the others though.

6) Affordable housing to offset the higher taxes in NY State. I plan to pay cash for a home and don’t want to be saddled down with a mortgage.

A while back I had a productive meeting with the current News Director at WSYR AM 570 in Syracuse about this idea. He recommended both Oswego and Fulton. I think both offer great potential for the concept and it is clear, based upon my visits to the area, that there is some interest in the idea of redeveloping a local radio station now that the current stations are clones from Syracuse.

Other people have recommended Rome and I have the support of the local government should I choose to locate there. But I’ve found very little interest shown by the local residents in this idea for a new local radio station. Based upon what I have found through my research it appears as though people in the Utica market are fed up with the way the corporations have ruined their local stations and they more or less shun the local stations. Obviously a real challenge to succeed in this environment.

I’ve had a couple of people tell me to avoid Buffalo. They don’t get into specifics but simply said avoid Buffalo. I wish I knew if this meant Erie County or simply Buffalo and not the suburban communities. Some of the suburbs look like they might work for this kind of venture. The city does seem to have a decent climate for independent small businesses based upon what I’ve seen in the last couple of years.

Other people recommend locating in a college town like Oswego or Fredonia because they will be a bit more open minded and culturally diverse. Often times college towns are the best small business incubators in the country!

Based upon everything I’ve passed along to you I’d like to get your feedback on which places, on my list in your eyes, best meet all the above criteria. And if you can add any other places I would be willing to keep an open mind and I’d give them a look. Thank You!

[Sgoldie]

Sorry I missed your post before. I'm in Oswego and would recommend this city. We currently have an NPR news format station at the college, where incidentally there is a strong radio degree program. Students run a low wattage cutting edge (scary) music format.

As you mentioned at another locale most of the locals have been taken over by national broadcasters, much to their demise, and one of my biggest pet peeves. They all have the same screaming in your ear, pounding, ill-voiced excuses for music, day and night.

I'm not sure what you mean by oldies, but I will tell you what would fly around here and that is (1) either big band music (as we have a significant senior population) others would like it too, or (2) light/smooth/urban jazz (my very strong preference), or (3) entirely love songs. The very last thing we need is another rock/oldies station as the Syracuse ones bleed all over the spectrum as it is since they have towers here, not to mention they all play the same junk. Something along the lines of the Wave from the Keys if you are familiar with that now defunct station would also do well, easy listening, water-based community stuff.

There are several new artsy type stores here and we are investigating an outreach to add addl creative people to town. Yours would be a welcome addition if you follow the format I recommend. We have been underserved here for years. I was a music major and cannot stand to even turn on the radio unless it's the classical station from Syracuse which I can only get in the car.

Real estate is dirt cheap compared to anyplace else you can imagine especially given the fact that it's so beautiful with all the water venues. There is a business incubator locale as well as empty storefronts downtown.

If you need any addl info PM me. Please follow my recommendation and do not add another rock station to the mix.

[aka_mouse]

Id almost say Utica/Rome since they dont have **** there for radio as far as Im concerned. That might be a good place for that.

I honestly cant say anything about anywhere else cause I dont know enough about it, but the Seneca Nation has a lot going on in Buffalo. Between the Casinos and the Rez gas stations and all that, they make thier presence known (its actually getting kind of heated again with the land disputes , im siding with them). I might be overexagerrating it , but I tend to think of Buffalo (the entire metro) as kind of having this mix of influences, US/Canada/Blue collar white/black and native americans.

(then again Utica/Rome probably has the same deal since they too have a Native American casino in the area the Turning stone)

The only thing to keep in mind is Buffalo/Toronto IIRC is one of the largest media footprints in the US, which while people dont think it is -- its why its hard to get into. There was a liberal station that tried to get started here 1270AM that failed (I liked it when it was around.. now its back to Gospel)... but in general it wasnt surprising. Unfortunately we still have Rush Limbaugh on 930AM ...

the only stations that really make it here are 103.3FM cause they have a super solid line-up Opie and Anthony in the morning.. and the incredibly popular here - Shredd and Ragan in the afternoon. 550 AM WGR sports radio, same deal (Jim Rome 12-3, not to mention guys that just talk Sabres and Bills outside that time frame). Everything else is your standard office type stations.. Its pretty much locked up. I don't like libertarian ideals for the most part, but Ill give you honest advice in WNY it probably wouldnt work out - not because I would disagree with you but rather just cause Ive seen political niche markets fail here. Outside Buffalo and all points east towards Rochester, who knows.

[WILWRadio]

Thank you both for your reply.

SGoldie. The station is not going to be a true rock station. In fact, I do have some light jazz mixed into the playlist that I have planned for the station. Big Band music has some limited appeal and could be utilized in a block format at times. I have a friend in nearby Watertown (demographically speaking a lot like Oswego) that programs a tiny station like this with Big Band/Adult Standards and while he does have listeners, the station does not have mass appeal. He programs the station that way because it is the format he likes. I, on the other hand, have chosen a format that is highly popular and not really what I'd consider to be one of my favorites. But the ratings indicate, especially in an older demographic like Oswego, that it will work. Starting up a second station of just Big Band is entirely possible and something I would consider.

I will PM you within the next few days. I am preparing for a road trip this weekend and I will be very busy all day.

akamouse. Thank you for being straightforward. Yes, I am familiar with the Buffalo area and I think it would be tough to find a niche there because of the proximity to signals from Erie County and Toronto. It sounds like you are in Buffalo. Mush Limpjaw will forever be on WBEN AM 930. While I am no fan of the Liberal talk that was attempted on 1270 I also don't like the phoney conservative garbage that Limpjaw, Sean Handitty, Bill Ohreally? and the rest of them spew out either. I guess that is precisely why I am an Independent! I have a mix of friends with a variety of political views and we all get along. Us Libertarians just don't like a bunch of control freaks in government telling us what to do.

I've done some checking on the Utica-Rome market and there definitely appears to be a market for this concept in Rome. However, I've found the local stations have been run into the ground by the corporations that own them and the local people I've talked to seem to have little interest in the idea. I guess they are so pissed off at what has happened to local radio that they lost interest. Surprisingly the local government endorses the concept and wants me there.

[xamsx]

I too am in the Buffalo area, and I seldom listen to Buffalo radio. I listen to stations out of Toronto because, IMO the radio stations here stink. There is a big band station my grandfather listens to so that would be covered. The local oldies station 104.1 was converted to mix FM. Since there is a mix station out of Toronto there is twice the choice for the same thing, but no more oldies.

I'm no longer sure what (if anything) is locally owned. You'd have a much better handle on that.

As far as the city itself - why would your friends marriage cause him problems? His Alabama accent may cause comments, but her Nebraska accent will not cause people to remark. As aka_mouse stated there is a tremendous mix of influences in this area.

[Sgoldie]

I wanted to add that as a Libertarian you not be in the minority in Oswego County. There is a respected reservation just outside of Syracuse which has become more active and integrated into policy direction in CNY so your friend would also have no trouble. This is not the same clan that owns the casino.

The demographic between Watertown and Oswego is quite different. There is a military base there will young people from all over whose musical tastes would tend towards rock as well as country, possibly some salsa. Oswego is well covered by these formats already including a religious station. What we need is something different as I have described. I would be more than willing to sit down with you and put a music library together for both our benefits and look forward to your PM.

I agree with the above poster as to the superior quality of the Canadian stations. We can pull in Kingston and Toronto at night, quite a pleasure.

[WILWRadio]

XAMSX. There are a lot of racial problems in the part of the country where I presently reside. My friend and his wife have had problems. I want to be in a community where their mixed marriage will not be perceived as a problem.

[WILWRadio]

SGoldie. I checked the demographics again for both Oswego and Watertown. Median age is very close to identical. Median income is very close to one another and so is the % of men vs. women in each city. Watertown has a few more Minorities than Oswego but that seems to be the only difference. that issue aside I did not include Fort Drum since it seems to be a distinct community that is not part of the City of Watertown. I simply compared the demographics within the city limits and not adjacent towns.

I am more than willing to get some ideas from you concerning the format of the radio station. However, you should know that I have already done some studies and I plan to go with a tried and true format for the first station. One that has a chance to be commercially viable. The playlist is 2,400 songs and not the standard 300 or so that you hear on most stations. Lots of variety.

I will send you a PM where we can continue this discussion. It is very feasible to start up a second station to serve another niche in the market. I am willing to do that even if it won't generate the income that the initial station should. However, I have at least one station that can offer mass appeal and attract businesses willing to advertise on it. Eventually I'd like to make a modest living from it and avoid having to work for someone else. I'll probably have to commute to Syracuse to find a job but I'd like to be able to put an end to that after a couple of years, when I hope (assuming that I do locate in Oswego) that it can become self sustaining.

[homeward bound]

Here's rolling my two-cents real far:

I haven't ever been to Oswego. BUT everyone I know who knows the place--and SGOLDIE knows it very well!--says it's a truly friendly, easy-going place. The college and the lakeside setting doubtless contribute the most to that--but I think you can count on its fair-minded traditions to add to a general sense of civility. So I'd bet that your friends would not run into any flak for their mixed marriage in Oswego. And from what I know of other lakeside towns in the region, you'd feel like you're vacationing in a place that's almost too lovely to call home much of the year.

And when it snows hard--well, you'll have good radio to listen to, right?

Good luck! Sounds like an interesting, worthwhile venture.

And here's a secondary two-cents for an oldies format, if one isn't available there/around there. That's a default setting for A LOT of people who listen to a lot of radio--and reaches both a fairly young (late 20s) and older (60s) demographic.

[Dee62]

I am a Conservative/Libertarian (not Republican)

Western New York needs a conservative/Libertarian radio talk show host like Michael
Savage!

A community that welcomes new business concepts and is small business friendly

A college town would probably be small business friendly! However Western and central New York have not been small Business friendly for several reasons and I do not see the business climate improving anytime soon! One problem with small business and commerce upstate New york is lack of high product demand and/or purchasing volume for your products---services! Your Radio station will not be a profitable venture unless it has strong broadcasting frequency and can reach a wide audience who live throughout the entire region!