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@ grad, color was not a major component of this discussion... quality of neighbors was a topic of this discussion and you decided to make color your focal point... it could have been 90% white but if it were white trash folk in a high crime neighborhood we'd be having the same conversation... so no, you are not a pioneer for your cause and we are not racist...
I can appreciate your comment and like I said that's great for you but you cannot speak for the masses and even if you did the numbers are against you because most people living in this neighborhood do have a problem with the high number of crimes that take place here...
and at tkak69 I will look at the links you posted tomorrow but like I said you can check for yourself what the statistics were in 2009 for the entire area of Bushwick... I'll look for the link though... The numbers just one year ago prior to the statistics you're mentioning were about 62% hispanic 30-31% Black 6% white 3-4% asian... Again i'm not trying to knock your math or anything but facts are facts and the data speaks for itself... I mean if the number of black folk dropped as dramatically as you say it did in one year we'd be talking about somewhere around 40 moves a day...
The numbers just one year ago prior to the statistics you're mentioning were about 62% hispanic 30-31% Black 6% white 3-4% asian... Again i'm not trying to knock your math or anything but facts are facts and the data speaks for itself... I mean if the number of black folk dropped as dramatically as you say it did in one year we'd be talking about somewhere around 40 moves a day...
The only accurate way to get demographics numbers for Bushwick is to do what tkak did and add up all the census tracts.
So, yes, facts are facts and data speaks for itself.
Your arrogance proceeds you. What leads you to believe that the majority of the residents in Bushwick are experiencing crime? When I look at a crime map over the time that I have lived here, two things are apparent: [1] Most crime takes place in the Eastern-most part of Bushwick and is very concentrated (i.e. it appears that it is not a vast amount of people experiencing crime. It is more targeted to one area) [2] The crime that has taken place near me has been overwhelmingly theft (of which some were bank robberies, and even one being someone's mailbox being broken into. HARDLY things that are of significant threat to the residents of Bushwick.) You can't just post statistics without analyzing them. You also have no authority to speak of the character of the residents of Bushwick. Have you analyzed your data to see if the crimes committed in Bushwick were by residents of Bushwick? I am personally insulted and on behalf of my neighbors as to your claims of poor character; of which you are displaying yourself. Just because crime happens in Bushwick, that is no indication that it is by the residents of the community. If houses are getting broken into on Park Avenue, are we to assume that it is the residents of Park Avenue? I mean, the data is nice and all, but where is the -->thought and analysis<-- that make data useful? Data by itself is un-useful without analysis. You can't say that "All of Bushwick" is unsafe because there is crime happening in one corner. That's like saying that the state of Florida is unsafe because of the crime that happens in Miami. It makes no sense, and above all is an irresponsible way to present your point of view.
[Disclosure] I used www.spotcrime.com to find information on the crime committed in Bushwick between August 1st, 2010 and April 5th, 2011.
Also, can you please point out the exchange between us where I asserted that you were racist in any capacity? I would like you to show me so that I may apologize appropriately and publicly.
Last edited by gradco2004; 04-06-2011 at 01:23 AM..
“If you are afraid of people of color, or people who don't speak English as a first language, then I don't recommend this area for you’… ‘Statistics mean nothing if you are not affected by them. Color is referenced in my post, as it has been a main component of the conversation at hand.’” Again not directly but you saying that we were making this a color problem kinda does indicate how you think we feel about it… either way my issue with your statements is that its such a ridiculously small sample size that yet you seem to think that your points are more credible over a span of nine months than most others who have lived here their entire lives… and we are the arrogant vain ones… really?
Second off, when did I say that the majority of the residents were experiencing crime?? Please highlight that for me because all I remember saying was that the majority of the people living can’t stand the high number of crimes that take place in this neighborhood not that they are the ones experiencing the crime…
And one more thing to note you live on St. Nicholas and Starr which is borderline Ridgewood Bushwick… granted that is one of the shadier parts of what some consider Ridgewood but it has never been a hot spot in Bushwick. That being said I live on the borderline as well and I’ve lived here for nearly 15 years after I moved from East NY and believe me I’ve gone up and down this neighborhood of Bushwick from 96 through 2011 and while it is way better than what it used to be you cannot tell me based on your 9 month experience that if you are not involved in the drug trade then you are completely safe because no offense (if you can call me vain and arrogant I feel I can use this word) but that is idiotic… And that is one of the most arrogant comments on this thread… So because in you’re 9 months being here, (one person) you haven't experienced crime then you speak for the masses and we are all safe living here… Fact is in this neighborhood you are much more likely to have a violent crime committed on you than many other neighborhoods in NYC whether it be walking home from work at 8pm home and a group of thugs catch you on their way (ask the locals if that’s ever happened to them before you just go by your experience) or in broad daylight somebody forcefully takes your bag or pick pockets and puts a knife to you for your wallet… these are still hard times and since burglaries are on the rise in Bushwick that should tell you how people are struggling in this neighborhood… and what kind of retarded statement is “how do we know that its not people outside of this neighborhood committing the crimes?” Because Bushwick isn’t exactly a tourist attraction unlike Manhattan…
People don’t look at Bushwick and say wow this is definitely a place where people have money lemme come from the Bronx and rob these people… Please just stop because with every statement you make you show us your naivety…
the person who told me the story of the armed robbery theorized the criminals weren't from bushwick even tho the crime occurred in bushwick. i never thought about it but it kind of makes criminal sense to travel to the victim to make investigation harder on the victim's police precinct. i think street density/activity (population) is also a factor. the street where the armed robbery ocurred isn't bustling, it's kind of sleepy.
@ grimace I hear what you're saying but unlike a manhattan where people of all different boroughs come to spend time and there is money there, Bushwick isn't one of those areas... Does all crime happen from people in the neighborhood of course not thats a given... but do the majority of the crimes that happen in this area, come from local folks probably... And gradco's statement is just a weak way of trying to support the point he's trying to make but just like he pointed out we were doing by discrediting his opinion because it was based on a 9 month sample he was doing the same thing to us when we have a much greater sample size to go by...
@ tkak I looked at the numbers and I didn't do all the calculations to check them out but if the population numbers are true then the black population was never 30% of the neighborhood to begin with since theres only about 2000 less black folk in the area now at about 22,200 than in 2000 when it was about 24,300. Also people don't realize that there's always been a significant amount of white folks in the area even during the year 2000 and these were not hipster transplant folk either by any means... Now that being said the white population has had a decent growth in the population since 2000 when it went from about 3200 to 9800 but when taking into account the growth of the population which is now at about 114,000, that possibly about 4000-4500 of those are not the group that most say are taking over Bushwick, the numbers really aren't all that high to indicate that significant change will take place in this neighborhood...
Now look I am not doing this to keep the neighborhood stagnant and in its continued poverty and high crime reputation... I welcome the fact that crime isn't what it used to be in Bushwick... what I have issue with is so many people advertising this area so falsely that those suckered into buying into the area will assume that its paradise and that you have absolutely nothing to worry about when that isn't the case. I have mentioned this in other threads before, whenever I go to wyckoff or woodhull hospital there are always a few that fit the bill of a hipster thats gotten beat up by the locals and I have heard of not one or two but a number of separate incidences where because this area has been falsely advertised they feel completely safe to walk up and down the area at whatever time and not been in danger and have suffered the consequences because of it... @ gradco you say you came from New Orleans so you're not ignorant to crime, but most that come here are sheltered and have no idea what its like to live in the hood which is what Bushwick still is... like it or not...
@ tkak I looked at the numbers and I didn't do all the calculations to check them out but if the population numbers are true then the black population was never 30% of the neighborhood to begin with since theres only about 2000 less black folk in the area now at about 22,200 than in 2000 when it was about 24,300. Also people don't realize that there's always been a significant amount of white folks in the area even during the year 2000 and these were not hipster transplant folk either by any means... Now that being said the white population has had a decent growth in the population since 2000 when it went from about 3200 to 9800 but when taking into account the growth of the population which is now at about 114,000, that possibly about 4000-4500 of those are not the group that most say are taking over Bushwick, the numbers really aren't all that high to indicate that significant change will take place in this neighborhood...
Now look I am not doing this to keep the neighborhood stagnant and in its continued poverty and high crime reputation... I welcome the fact that crime isn't what it used to be in Bushwick... what I have issue with is so many people advertising this area so falsely that those suckered into buying into the area will assume that its paradise and that you have absolutely nothing to worry about when that isn't the case. I have mentioned this in other threads before, whenever I go to wyckoff or woodhull hospital there are always a few that fit the bill of a hipster thats gotten beat up by the locals and I have heard of not one or two but a number of separate incidences where because this area has been falsely advertised they feel completely safe to walk up and down the area at whatever time and not been in danger and have suffered the consequences because of it... @ gradco you say you came from New Orleans so you're not ignorant to crime, but most that come here are sheltered and have no idea what its like to live in the hood which is what Bushwick still is... like it or not...
anon1: Notice the city-data pie chart graphic on the link above that reports race proportion, doesn't say "2008", where the other graphs do. The reason is that racial demographics are calculated based on CENSUS data, which happens every ten years. Therefore the pie-chart they reported in 2008 is based on census data from 2000 (although no attribution is notated as it should, it is certainly based on the last census data available). You'll notice on my report, that the population of blacks in 2010 is 20% , down 9% from 2000. Therefore, if the city-data graph reflects approximately 30%, then my numbers and the city-data chart agree. I don't mean to be a know-it-all about this, but facts are facts. The racial demographics only tell part of the story, anyway. Obviously race and crime and quality of life are not co-equal. But the demographic shifts are reflective of other shifts occuring, including overall crime decreases (last year's uptick notwithstanding), new development, etc.
Those of you that point out that Bushwick is not a "utopia" are certainly correct. I know better than anyone that that's true. Why one of my neighbors seems to enjoy dumping loose trash on the curb is beyond me. And no one should have illusions that they can drop their guard here or for that matter in most neighborhoods in brooklyn, upper manhattan, bronx and about half of Queens. Bushwick is a dynamic neighborhood with mostly low income residents, and there are certain factors that one must accept that comes along with that. The fact is the neighborhood is changing. Transportation and the proximity to growth areas nearly assures it will continue to change for the better. In the meantime, people like me (yuppies, i guess) and young people from out of town (hispters, fine) must know what we're getting into. I do. The verdict is mostly in: the trade-offs are worth it. (My commute is 35 minutes to Grand Central, door-to-door. I have a garden, roof deck, and basement. I love it.) You are correct that some folks move out of the neighborhood, disatisfied. I've met a few. They didn't think it was worth it. To each his own. But many do think it's worth it, and they continue to move here.
For the record, I think there is nothing wrong with warning people about the risks, and perhaps you can suggest areas to newcomers that are just as convenient, that have more amenities, are more attractive, have lower crime rates, and are also cheaper. By all means suggest away!! But don't disparage a whole neighborhood / class of people who see something in this place and have invested themselves. Many people think it's great. If they seem to accept the risks and the comprimises and still think it's great. Let 'em, for heaven's sake.
So, clearly (and ESPECIALLY since I never addressed you outside of the times that I used your name) I have not asserted that you are racist. Second, I have spoken for myself, you are the one using the phrase "Most people" and "Most residents." How you have surveyed and talked to "Most" people in Bushwick is beyond my comprehension, but even further, none of my business. I have quickly become exhausted by your need to argue about something so asinine as my experience vs. your experience. I mean, truly I am.
To the O.P.,
I would like to restate, that yes, in my experience, the area that you are asking about in Bushwick is safe. I don't recall you asking about the "value" of the area, but I offered what my rent is for you to determine, as "value" is something we can only decide for ourselves. I also mentioned to you the racial and visual make up of the people who live in Bushwick, as it is relevant. This is not in any way implying you are racist (meaning: you TREAT people different because of the color of their skin). A person coming from Saddletweed, Iowa may experience anxiety not having been around people of color. Does not mean that they would treat them different, but with the unknown comes fear, especially when there is a language element added. Again, this is in no way asserting that you have a PROBLEM with people of color. I hope you understood my statement as such.
Any crime data that you find should be taken with the intent to analyze it, and still decide on what type of community that you wish to reside in. Chances are that if you move to California, as opposed to Florida, you will be the victim of an earthquake. Do people still move to California and lead happy lives? Most certainly! Are there people who move to California and never experience earthquakes? Most certainly again, as I know some personally. Just be informed. We do not all value the same thing, and there are sacrifices to be made for ANY community we move to (be it amenities, high rent, travel time, and safety). Visit the area, talk to your potential neighbors, negotiate your rent, and you will come to the knowledge that you are seeking.
Last edited by gradco2004; 04-06-2011 at 11:45 AM..
@ tkak I definitely hear what you're saying and from what i see we are in agreement for the most part... @ gradco2004 im just gonna let it be cause for someone who says I argue alot you sure have to always have the last word and shut down anyone else's opinion but let's not get into another debate...
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