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I'm trying to refi from a 30yr (that I've been paying extra on every month) to a 15, which will result in same payment (when counting the extra I've been paying) but I'll just be done a whole lot sooner. My credit score is north of 800, I have no debts other than a credit card I use for convenience and pay off every month. I've been in same job for 11 years, have over 40% equity in the home, etc. Income/debt ratio is spectacular, etc. I could pay off the rest of the house with proceeds from non-retirement investments if I really needed to. There's nothing weird about my financial situation.
I've done all the verification, credit check, pay statements, bank statements, two years of tax returns (in addition to the form that allows them to get straight from IRS), etc. So far so good, I understand that underwriters have to verify this stuff when making a big loan. I get that.
I happen to have a somewhat common name, so the last rounds of notarized affidavits have been in the form of "Sign this form saying this is not you" (in reference to some debt in my state by someone with same first and last name). They also previously asked for a letter of explanation about a $60,000 tax lien (which doesn't exist). I refused to provide a letter of explanation and instead asked them to provide ME with an explanation of what the heck they were talking about. They backed down from that one. The keep finding additional people sharing my name with various legal trouble and I keep having to explain "no, thats not me either".
The straw that broke the camels back for me today was them wanting a complete copy of my divorce decree (from 7 years ago). I had already provided part of it documenting the amount of child support I owe. Now they want to see the whole thing to somehow prove I don't owe other money (alimony) which I don't (any more). I would understand if I was receiving alimony and depending on the income.
But I'm getting sick of proving things don't exist. I don't care about the divorce information - if they had asked for that first, i would have provided it, and the last straw would be something else.
So i literally told them to take a hike, and that should have plenty of information to make a decision.
I probably screwed myself out of a fantastic rate lock
I'll probably eventually relent and provide the information, but it was enormously satisfying to send that email.
Hello,
This is my first post here, but I have been on City-Data.com several times in the past. Just felt the need to update this thread and verify that Wells Fargo Home Mortgage is still a PITA. I have to admit I am still 24 days from closing, but have been in limbo waiting for the underwriter to complete a VOE from my previous employer. The VOE was submitted by my previous employer, but apparently there is something in the "wording" that he/she didn't like. My loan processor and loan officer have actually been great, but the underwriting is a joke. I am aware of the federal regulations etc... which have made the overall mortgage process cumbersome, but deciding to get a mortgage is a major decision. For renters coming back into the housing game it is nerve racking to say the least. There should be some process in place to where these mortgage companies are required to either give you a definite answer or be held accountable. To back out only days or even a couple of weeks into before closing is unacceptable. Provided you give them everything that is required within the first week or two, there should be a firm commitment by these lenders long before you get close to closing.
I took out my first mortgage in 2009. It was a VA loan and I used a local lender who subsequently sold the loan to Wells Fargo. I could have cared less that they sold the loan as it didn't change anything on my end other than who we wrote the monthly mortgage check to. I must have been lucky, because we had 45 days from the offer submittal to closing date and I waited 3 weeks with everything done to close. In fact I asked the sellers to move the closing date up two weeks because the lender had everything ready, but the seller refused. Fast forward to 2016 and I am going through the most ridiculous process to try to secure a mortgage with Wells Fargo. Everything I am dealing with is minor, but irritating. My biggest concern is that we are going to be a day or two from closing and Wells is going to leave me standing at the alter.
In 2012 I took out a second mortgage (we rented our first home out) with USAA. It was conventional loan with 20% down. USAA was horrible, lost paperwork, no consistency in who I was dealing with, and just an overall mess. We closed 10 days late, but only because paperwork and documents submitted were mishandled repeatedly. Our loan wasn't in underwriting until 12 days before closing. Those on this forum who insist paperwork is never lost by mortgage lender should give USAA's mortgage process a go.
We sold both of our homes in 2014. I have since relocated and have been renting for the last 18 months to get a feel for the area and ensure this is a place where we want to settle for a while. In January we finally found a home that suited our needs and is in the exact location we want it to be. For some strange reason we chose a big bank, Wells Fargo, not learning our lesson from the USAA debacle. We are now 33 days into the process, we are supposed to close on the 15th of March, and our loan has been in underwriting for two weeks. 10 days ago we got the go ahead and email confirmation that our commitment was a go. So we put in notice on our rental and were pleased with Wells Fargo. 6 days ago, we got an email stating that the underwriter wanted employment information related to my previous job. No problem, forwarded them 5 years worth of W-2s which show steady and increasing pay. They also got a VOE from my previous employer. However, within the last week Wells Fargo has rejected two of the VOEs. There is some specific language that the underwriter is looking for in the VOE. So I email the loan officer and he just says this is part of the process. So here I sit, waiting on another VOE with some obscure legal language. I was actually pleased that my previous employer acted so quickly, if I was them I would give Wells the finger and leave me hanging. They have no reason to spend time and money to continue catering to these jokers.
Bottom line is if I cant close this loan because of this nonsense, then I have two weeks after the close date to either find someplace else to live or try to find a temporary housing situation until we can go with another lender and try to get this house again. Financially, I am sure I will be liable for a few thousand $$$ if it doesn't go through and on top of that the inconvenience of having to move my family of five into a temporary rental situation. While I don't disagree with some of the extra steps taken, there should be a drop dead date. The mortgage company gets the information they need and makes a decision, period! It is too late in the process for me to get a different lender and too late to ask my landlord to stay as they have already found another renter. Would have never put in my notice if they didn't assure me that a loan commitment was forthcoming. Shame on me for not waiting to see the commitment in writing. You can only be so careful, wait too long and I am paying an extra month or two on my rental, give notice to soon and then you end up in the situation I am in.
I hope this is my last mortgage for a while and quite honestly I knew what to expect. If you are first time home buyer, know that local lenders will be much easier to deal with. That point has been reverberated many times throughout this thread. My first mortgage was a breeze and I had zero hangups. With my local lender I had a loan commitment within a couple of weeks and was ready to close weeks before the day even got there. My last 2 mortgages have been a mess and I attribute it to big bank BS. Certainly shop for the best rates, etc..., but if you have to pay an extra grand or two, it may be worth it to choose the local lender. Also know that "pre-approval" is a racket to lock you in and not give you any other options. Once you get "pre-approved", the ball will start rolling and you will be on the hook for all of the fees related to the purchase, inspection, appraisal, etc... and when the bank backs out you are stuck holding the bill. They lose nothing, but gain nothing either, so I cant understand why they work in this way. One final thing, I hear horror stories about loans being sold after closing etc..., that means nothing to you except who you write the check to every month. If for some reason your loan is sold and your terms change, someone at the new mortgage company is out of line. My first mortgage was sold by my local lender to Wells Fargo and the only thing that changed was the address on the pay stub. Your terms and everything remain the same. So don't worry if the local lender is in the business of approving loans and then selling them, you wont be affected all that much.
Hello,
This is my first post here, but I have been on City-Data.com several times in the past. Just felt the need to update this thread and verify that Wells Fargo Home Mortgage is still a PITA. I have to admit I am still 24 days from closing, but have been in limbo waiting for the underwriter to complete a VOE from my previous employer. The VOE was submitted by my previous employer, but apparently there is something in the "wording" that he/she didn't like. My loan processor and loan officer have actually been great, but the underwriting is a joke. I am aware of the federal regulations etc... which have made the overall mortgage process cumbersome, but deciding to get a mortgage is a major decision. For renters coming back into the housing game it is nerve racking to say the least. There should be some process in place to where these mortgage companies are required to either give you a definite answer or be held accountable. To back out only days or even a couple of weeks into before closing is unacceptable. Provided you give them everything that is required within the first week or two, there should be a firm commitment by these lenders long before you get close to closing.
I took out my first mortgage in 2009. It was a VA loan and I used a local lender who subsequently sold the loan to Wells Fargo. I could have cared less that they sold the loan as it didn't change anything on my end other than who we wrote the monthly mortgage check to. I must have been lucky, because we had 45 days from the offer submittal to closing date and I waited 3 weeks with everything done to close. In fact I asked the sellers to move the closing date up two weeks because the lender had everything ready, but the seller refused. Fast forward to 2016 and I am going through the most ridiculous process to try to secure a mortgage with Wells Fargo. Everything I am dealing with is minor, but irritating. My biggest concern is that we are going to be a day or two from closing and Wells is going to leave me standing at the alter.
In 2012 I took out a second mortgage (we rented our first home out) with USAA. It was conventional loan with 20% down. USAA was horrible, lost paperwork, no consistency in who I was dealing with, and just an overall mess. We closed 10 days late, but only because paperwork and documents submitted were mishandled repeatedly. Our loan wasn't in underwriting until 12 days before closing. Those on this forum who insist paperwork is never lost by mortgage lender should give USAA's mortgage process a go.
We sold both of our homes in 2014. I have since relocated and have been renting for the last 18 months to get a feel for the area and ensure this is a place where we want to settle for a while. In January we finally found a home that suited our needs and is in the exact location we want it to be. For some strange reason we chose a big bank, Wells Fargo, not learning our lesson from the USAA debacle. We are now 33 days into the process, we are supposed to close on the 15th of March, and our loan has been in underwriting for two weeks. 10 days ago we got the go ahead and email confirmation that our commitment was a go. So we put in notice on our rental and were pleased with Wells Fargo. 6 days ago, we got an email stating that the underwriter wanted employment information related to my previous job. No problem, forwarded them 5 years worth of W-2s which show steady and increasing pay. They also got a VOE from my previous employer. However, within the last week Wells Fargo has rejected two of the VOEs. There is some specific language that the underwriter is looking for in the VOE. So I email the loan officer and he just says this is part of the process. So here I sit, waiting on another VOE with some obscure legal language. I was actually pleased that my previous employer acted so quickly, if I was them I would give Wells the finger and leave me hanging. They have no reason to spend time and money to continue catering to these jokers.
Bottom line is if I cant close this loan because of this nonsense, then I have two weeks after the close date to either find someplace else to live or try to find a temporary housing situation until we can go with another lender and try to get this house again. Financially, I am sure I will be liable for a few thousand $$$ if it doesn't go through and on top of that the inconvenience of having to move my family of five into a temporary rental situation. While I don't disagree with some of the extra steps taken, there should be a drop dead date. The mortgage company gets the information they need and makes a decision, period! It is too late in the process for me to get a different lender and too late to ask my landlord to stay as they have already found another renter. Would have never put in my notice if they didn't assure me that a loan commitment was forthcoming. Shame on me for not waiting to see the commitment in writing. You can only be so careful, wait too long and I am paying an extra month or two on my rental, give notice to soon and then you end up in the situation I am in.
I hope this is my last mortgage for a while and quite honestly I knew what to expect. If you are first time home buyer, know that local lenders will be much easier to deal with. That point has been reverberated many times throughout this thread. My first mortgage was a breeze and I had zero hangups. With my local lender I had a loan commitment within a couple of weeks and was ready to close weeks before the day even got there. My last 2 mortgages have been a mess and I attribute it to big bank BS. Certainly shop for the best rates, etc..., but if you have to pay an extra grand or two, it may be worth it to choose the local lender. Also know that "pre-approval" is a racket to lock you in and not give you any other options. Once you get "pre-approved", the ball will start rolling and you will be on the hook for all of the fees related to the purchase, inspection, appraisal, etc... and when the bank backs out you are stuck holding the bill. They lose nothing, but gain nothing either, so I cant understand why they work in this way. One final thing, I hear horror stories about loans being sold after closing etc..., that means nothing to you except who you write the check to every month. If for some reason your loan is sold and your terms change, someone at the new mortgage company is out of line. My first mortgage was sold by my local lender to Wells Fargo and the only thing that changed was the address on the pay stub. Your terms and everything remain the same. So don't worry if the local lender is in the business of approving loans and then selling them, you wont be affected all that much.
Thanks for reading,
Brian
What kind of loan did you apply for and how much down?
What is the exact language of the VOE the UW is having issues on? One subtle nuance can indicate lack of probability of continued income, or can indicate lack of hours....there is something there that is not typical..........it could literally be one of a100 variables.
This forum would have told you to shy away from WF, but what is done is done. Truth is WF purchases a large number of mortgages originated by other companies.
Reg B now requires an underwriting decision within 30 days of application. That means either a denial or an approval with conditions, or a suspension for insufficient information.
Without exact detail, no one can tell you what is going on.
Thank you for the input. But, the VOE is from my former employer. I left there in 2013. This a conventional loan with 25% down. I don't know what language has been used or needs to be used as WF will not tell me. The only thing I can say is that I have been in my industry for 15 years and have steadily increasing income since 2007 and I work for a large corporation in the exact same industry. I know what you are getting at with the language in the VOE. That is exactly the problem, I have a steady income for the last 15 years. A near guarantee of employment for at least the next 5 years based on my current companies contract with the Uncle Sam. I realize that they must make a determination and that is exactly my point, they had made one supposedly and now a verification of employment from a former employer is hampering the deal? I supposed we could go around and around about this, but quite frankly the whole process is nonsense. Every American applying for a mortgage is being punished because of irresponsible lending and government nonsense. Irresponsible lending was extending home loans to people with bad credit, who lied about income amounts etc... and no verification was being done. It caught up with the lenders in the mid to late 2000s. My income, employment history, and very good credit history have already been verified. This is where the government and the underwriting process are overstepping the bounds of reasonableness. I get the housing crash and how it resulted, but give me a break. There were some extreme examples of negligence and dishonesty on both sides of the table. Addressing that issue simply means actually verifying information and making a decision. All factors have been considered in this case, so make a decision. They should have known in the first week whether or not they wanted my business. Had they denied my application after reasonable consideration, no problem. But instead, they drag you through the mud making promises and then leave you standing at the alter. I do wish I had read this forum before deciding on a lender. Wells suckered me in with the best overall deal, closing costs plus the rate were better than anyone else I looked at. Also, they serviced the loan which I had on my first home and I had no issues.
Thank you for the input. But, the VOE is from my former employer. I left there in 2013. This a conventional loan with 25% down. I don't know what language has been used or needs to be used as WF will not tell me. The only thing I can say is that I have been in my industry for 15 years and have steadily increasing income since 2007 and I work for a large corporation in the exact same industry. I know what you are getting at with the language in the VOE. That is exactly the problem, I have a steady income for the last 15 years. A near guarantee of employment for at least the next 5 years based on my current companies contract with the Uncle Sam. I realize that they must make a determination and that is exactly my point, they had made one supposedly and now a verification of employment from a former employer is hampering the deal? I supposed we could go around and around about this, but quite frankly the whole process is nonsense. Every American applying for a mortgage is being punished because of irresponsible lending and government nonsense. Irresponsible lending was extending home loans to people with bad credit, who lied about income amounts etc... and no verification was being done. It caught up with the lenders in the mid to late 2000s. My income, employment history, and very good credit history have already been verified. This is where the government and the underwriting process are overstepping the bounds of reasonableness. I get the housing crash and how it resulted, but give me a break. There were some extreme examples of negligence and dishonesty on both sides of the table. Addressing that issue simply means actually verifying information and making a decision. All factors have been considered in this case, so make a decision. They should have known in the first week whether or not they wanted my business. Had they denied my application after reasonable consideration, no problem. But instead, they drag you through the mud making promises and then leave you standing at the alter. I do wish I had read this forum before deciding on a lender. Wells suckered me in with the best overall deal, closing costs plus the rate were better than anyone else I looked at. Also, they serviced the loan which I had on my first home and I had no issues.
Thank you for the input. But, the VOE is from my former employer. I left there in 2013. This a conventional loan with 25% down. I don't know what language has been used or needs to be used as WF will not tell me. The only thing I can say is that I have been in my industry for 15 years and have steadily increasing income since 2007 and I work for a large corporation in the exact same industry. I know what you are getting at with the language in the VOE. That is exactly the problem, I have a steady income for the last 15 years. A near guarantee of employment for at least the next 5 years based on my current companies contract with the Uncle Sam. I realize that they must make a determination and that is exactly my point, they had made one supposedly and now a verification of employment from a former employer is hampering the deal? I supposed we could go around and around about this, but quite frankly the whole process is nonsense. Every American applying for a mortgage is being punished because of irresponsible lending and government nonsense. Irresponsible lending was extending home loans to people with bad credit, who lied about income amounts etc... and no verification was being done. It caught up with the lenders in the mid to late 2000s. My income, employment history, and very good credit history have already been verified. This is where the government and the underwriting process are overstepping the bounds of reasonableness. I get the housing crash and how it resulted, but give me a break. There were some extreme examples of negligence and dishonesty on both sides of the table. Addressing that issue simply means actually verifying information and making a decision. All factors have been considered in this case, so make a decision. They should have known in the first week whether or not they wanted my business. Had they denied my application after reasonable consideration, no problem. But instead, they drag you through the mud making promises and then leave you standing at the alter. I do wish I had read this forum before deciding on a lender. Wells suckered me in with the best overall deal, closing costs plus the rate were better than anyone else I looked at. Also, they serviced the loan which I had on my first home and I had no issues.
Thanks,
Brian
Do you have your 1099s and tax returns from those years, it seems unreasonable to verify employment from over 2 years ago. I bet underwriter like to create their own rules.
From what I understand you are supposed to verify employment for 2 years. Sometimes is seems that underwriters sabotage their own loans, perhaps they hate where they work and want to harm the bank, at least that's what it seems like. They seem to lack common sense too. I'm worried about the appraisal first and the underwriter second. I already have signs that there will be a problem because i am getting mixed messages from the loan officer about gift funds for closing. She tells me my father can wire the funds before closing to the title company and tells me for underwriting approval they need to have proof of the funds having been transferred. You can't have it both ways. I offered proof of funds from my father's account and the bank knows I tired to use the gift funds on a previous loan that was almost transferred to them after the appraisal came in low. Underwriters seem to be told to be robots without common sense.
Thank you for the input. But, the VOE is from my former employer. I left there in 2013. This a conventional loan with 25% down. I don't know what language has been used or needs to be used as WF will not tell me. The only thing I can say is that I have been in my industry for 15 years and have steadily increasing income since 2007 and I work for a large corporation in the exact same industry. I know what you are getting at with the language in the VOE. That is exactly the problem, I have a steady income for the last 15 years. A near guarantee of employment for at least the next 5 years based on my current companies contract with the Uncle Sam. I realize that they must make a determination and that is exactly my point, they had made one supposedly and now a verification of employment from a former employer is hampering the deal? I supposed we could go around and around about this, but quite frankly the whole process is nonsense. Every American applying for a mortgage is being punished because of irresponsible lending and government nonsense. Irresponsible lending was extending home loans to people with bad credit, who lied about income amounts etc... and no verification was being done. It caught up with the lenders in the mid to late 2000s. My income, employment history, and very good credit history have already been verified. This is where the government and the underwriting process are overstepping the bounds of reasonableness. I get the housing crash and how it resulted, but give me a break. There were some extreme examples of negligence and dishonesty on both sides of the table. Addressing that issue simply means actually verifying information and making a decision. All factors have been considered in this case, so make a decision. They should have known in the first week whether or not they wanted my business. Had they denied my application after reasonable consideration, no problem. But instead, they drag you through the mud making promises and then leave you standing at the alter. I do wish I had read this forum before deciding on a lender. Wells suckered me in with the best overall deal, closing costs plus the rate were better than anyone else I looked at. Also, they serviced the loan which I had on my first home and I had no issues.
Thanks,
Brian
There is definitely a disconnect, unless you changed the work you do and how you are/were paid. Today, 2013 income should be irrelevant, unless being used for a specific tie-in to what you are doing today. Contact the professor's supervisor and keep escalating until you have your answer.
Do you have your 1099s and tax returns from those years, it seems unreasonable to verify employment from over 2 years ago. I bet underwriter like to create their own rules.
From what I understand you are supposed to verify employment for 2 years. Sometimes is seems that underwriters sabotage their own loans, perhaps they hate where they work and want to harm the bank, at least that's what it seems like. They seem to lack common sense too. I'm worried about the appraisal first and the underwriter second. I already have signs that there will be a problem because i am getting mixed messages from the loan officer about gift funds for closing. She tells me my father can wire the funds before closing to the title company and tells me for underwriting approval they need to have proof of the funds having been transferred. You can't have it both ways. I offered proof of funds from my father's account and the bank knows I tired to use the gift funds on a previous loan that was almost transferred to them after the appraisal came in low. Underwriters seem to be told to be robots without common sense.
Everywhere I have worked (and unfortunately, it took a few tries before I found my happy place, so I have had 4 employers since the summer of 2013. (Lenders know they must recruit at all costs to survive, and being less than truthful is not uncommon as I found out ant my own expense). All four of those employers would have required the following for any loan type:
1) verification dad has the assets to transfer to you, and,
2) seeing the gift funds leaving his account (with no breaks in the days). So if dad gives you a statement ending Jan 30 and transfers Feb 6, we would also need a printout of from Jan 30 thru Feb 6, showing his funds exiting that account.
3) 60 day history on your accounts
4) verification of funds arriving. If your statements also ended Jan 30, we would need a print out your account from Jan 30 thru the date the gift arrived (you may as well make certain your earnest money is within the span of the gift funds clearing - most UW want to see that exiting your account, as well).
5). A gift letter stating the funds need not to be repaid
Consumers are not aware why all funds must be conclusively documented, and there are several Bills (laws) we must meet. The easiest way to launder money use to be the purchase of real estate. The two benefactors were drugs and terrorism. The Bank Secrecy Act was passed in 1970. As the criminals advanced in their methods, the Bills have been tweaked in an attempt to match their ingenuity. This would include the filing of SARs (suspicious activity report) with the Dept of Treasury. The fine and penalties are harsh and personnel are individually liable for for disregarding the requirements. Ignorance is not a defense, so shame on your loan officer, they skipped training.
Now, all that said, there are some tricks of the trade to streamline and make the process more efficient, but in the end, the transfer of funds has been documented. If you substitute title company, the transfer needs to be documented, but in their escrow account. There is also the possibility you are very close to qualifying without the use of dad's funds and the gift will not be required for loan approval. Everyone documents gifts their own way (maybe why your LO is unclear), but the transfer of gift funds are proven.
Quote:
Sometimes is seems that underwriters sabotage their own loans, perhaps they hate where they work and want to harm the bank, at least that's what it seems like.
It may feel that way to you, but since Dodd/Frank every loan officer, appraiser, and underwriter has a number attached to every loan file. (Now, with the new Closing Disclosure, agents and title companies are now attached to their transactions). The reason is simple: tracking and looking for patterns of abuse and fraud. Before, if any agency wanted to know how many foreclosures a specific loan officer put on the books, it was a tremendous task. It also helps track UWs that discriminate, intended or not, or, who has a high number of delinquencies. My guess is since the process has been in place for 5+ years, it won't be long before we start seeing reports generated. Whether they are shared, remains a mystery. But at the end of the day, the underwriter is the final gatekeeper. And if he or she lets one through that wasn't deserving of the approval, their institution could be sued for providing you a loan they never should have given you. Now how screwed up is that?
I am in Canada and was pre approved, I'm 54, shouldn't be starting over but have to, due to being injured at work years ago and having WSIB play (putting it nicely) with my life. I feel degraded and humiliated for having 2 old accounts with late pmts but paid in full 3 and 4 years ago, the late payments were caused when WSIB terminated my benefits while I was in hospital ICU to be exact on a ventilator. This has all been explained but even though my credit scores are good, have permanent income now (all documented) and absolutely no lates or missed pmts of any kind and I am well within my debt ratio's and the mortgage pmt and taxes would be less then what I pay in rent, I'm being treated like a pariah on society. I feel humiliated and degraded by this entire process and it has brought forward alot of the PTSD issues caused by WSIB's abuse of me (which I thought had been dealt with), had I of known this is what I would be going through I would never had started the process. I have bought and sold many homes over the years, never missed a mortgage payment, never even late with one, have always been responsible financially and have never experienced anything like this. I have to explain how I was able to save a DP, explain and cross reference deposits from one account to another, I've had to explain why I am starting over, why I had late pmts in 2011 those accounts paid in full in 2012 and 2013, I have a credit card, a bank loan all paid on time and up to date....here in Canada they don't even consider our rental pmt history or mortgage pmt history. Just call me Ms Humiliated
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I just told my underwriter to take a hike
