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Understand, and a pretty good analogy...happens to me when we go camping all the time. But I guess I was referring more toward earlier posts where there seemed to be a lot of hostility towards people who "visit" and don't live permanently...at least not in the beginning. And keep in mind I'm not talking about moving in, buying up 200 acres, and building a McMansion on it. I'm talking about finding a nice little existing place with some space and just hanging out there with the family from time to time. To me, thats like the people at the park who come, lay down their blankets, and then leave to go play somewhere else for the whole day. You don't have to worry about someone obnoxious moving into the space because their stuff is there, but you don't have to see or hear them half the time either because they are someplace else most of the time. The best kind of park-goers, no?
Wow, I have to say...I started looking through this forum for more information on Montana, and am fairly disappointed with what some of what I've read here.
Well, I was born and raised in Montana and I don't think you're getting very good information. Let me make a comparison that puts things into perspective. Germany is slightly smaller than Montana and yet it has over 82 million citizens. It is one of the highest rated in terms of standard of living and wages. Also, if you've ever traveled there it's absolutely a beautiful country and still has open countryside and outdoor activities. Montana, on the other hand, has left than a million inhabitants and is doing poorly in certain categories such as employment, housing costs, etc. Many are blaming the few thousand newcomers for Montana's problems but they're simply wrong. The states that are growing in population are also the healthiest in terms of employment and economic progress. Many Montana communities realize that and are proud of the fact that they're starting to grow again. Silver Bow Country (Butte) is finally growing after years of declining population and they're bragging about it, not complaining.
If you ever happen to fly at night you really get a feel for how much open space there is in this country. Even flying out of Chicago you quickly pass over the suburbs and very soon you're flying over farmland and there's hardly any lights in sight.
The one important issue that Montana has to deal with is the management of the growth. I suspect that some of the frustration is because they're not doing a very good job of it. You can't stop people from moving in but you can direct the growth effectively by not letting developers do whatever they want and providing some intelligent land management.
Anyway, keep an open mind and really check out areas you might like. It can be done and it sounds like you have a good attitude as a potential newcomer.
Thanks for the post, MontanaGuy...that makes me feel a little bit better. It IS unfortunate that the almighty dollar still dictates who can do what to whom, on apparantly any level. From the point of view of someone who has been living like a sardine for the past 14 years, it seems to me that property values in the two markets (CA vs. MT) should be completely reversed. I can't for the life of me figure out why anyone would pay 800,000+ for an 750 sq. ft. teardown on a 4000 sq. ft. lot here. The real value lies in unspoiled, scenic spaces. Sometimes I'm embarrased at having gotten caught up in the "rat race" when I was a bit younger.
Montanaguy......increased property prices here are a very direct cause and effect of outside money. I've seen it over and over again, and who just posted the article on here about the out-a-country buyer paying 10 times the ranch property value. Saying it isn't so flys in the face of common sense. Even the other article post here, with respect to the bitterroot value, clearly states trends in income of the new comers verses the local labor market.
Reguarding our small population, Montana is NOT as big as it appears, especially the west and mountain parts, most of the land is government forest land, reservation, parks, etc, so the available land to develope is quite a bit smaller and than add to the fact that much of it is mountain and the development takes place in the valleys, if you want to know how big 'mountain' montana (where everyone is moving into) really is, measure the actual part available for build, it will be SIGNIFCANTLY smaller that the large state size suggest. This fact that you don't seem to comprehend, should give one pause to heed your notions and such assumptions pertaining to the matter.
Various montanas have various degrees of anamosity towards those moving in for summer homes. When I lived just outside yellowstone park, some locals looked at 'vacation homes' and there owners as a way to make money, and other just looked at the ever increasing clutter of summer homes on the surround hills as plight on a once pristine landscape, and had repective views on those they saw as the cause, in many cases buying up properties they couldn't afford themselves even though they lived and worked there and suffered the hard winters.
Take your pick...."if the suit fits, wear it", I'm just making a statement.
Mr. Scary, it is not the people who intend on coming here for a life and a home that are "ruining" this state. It is the people who are taking advantage of Montana that are doing it. And there are both internal and external factors. One of the external factors is that too many people are buying second homes here and not living in them. Do you think you not being there half the time is some kind of comfort to me? NO! I want ACTIVE memebers of my community. Positive movement. What are you contributing to this state by visiting it once and a while? But if this is your future retirment home then well, thats a plan. You are GOING to live here someday. I just don't think out of state people always think this stuff through all the way or they take advantage of it. Either way, it makes people have a hostile opinion of outsiders. I know more GOOD Calafornians here than bad, but boy do those bad ones make a stink! Too bad, really.
JJM,
I do agree with some of your concerns and I realize you're not attacking anyone personally who wants to move to Montana and you're just expressing your thoughts about the future of the state. It is true that people moving in from out of state with more money than the locals will tend to push up housing prices, that's happened in every state in the union. I mentioned that fact on another post in the last day or two in regards to the escalating housing costs in Salt Lake, Boise, and other western cities. I also understand your comments regarding the amount of land in Montana that is actually being developed. You make a good point and I agree with you. But let me also express my point of view about the pros and cons of growth and how we should deal with it. First of all, as I've said before, Americans are free to move anywhere they want in our nation. Afterall, we're not fifty nations, we're one nation. If you think your way of life is changing you should visit other states that have really been impacted by massive increases in population. Montana, as I've said before, is one of the slowest growing western states, that's not an opinion, it's a verifiable fact. Visit Boise, Salt Lake, Denver, Las Vegas and Phoenix and then we'll talk about growth. But there's another positive point that can be made about these cities. Their economies are booming, there are many new jobs and the overall impact is positive. We're never going to have a society like we did a couple of generations ago. Our country has passed 300 million citizens and continues to grow. It's important that our growth is managed in an intelligent and constructive way. That's where we should be focusing our attention, not on making comments urging people to stay away from Montana but instead trying to promote Montana's economy and making the best of the situation for native Montanans and newcomers alike.
Boise-Shmoise! I know a guy who doesn't have a great income who lives there and he bought a house just fine. Houses in Portland are cheaper than here. Go figure! Who knows what the difference is, but why do people only want to move to Western MT and not the Eastern side? Oh, thats right. Cause its ugly and flat. I guess that simple life quality doesn't include not living next to a ski hill? I dunno. Seems biased to me. Move to Montana but move to the HI-LINE and breathe some life into it for petes sake! CPR!!!
Sorry, I have to agree but Boise proper properties have gone high, unless you want to move out west of Boise and commute 45 minutes plus or so each day. Boise is feeeling more and more like one big suburban development. The charachter it had is leaving. Influx wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't people just looking for that larger home further and further away from the heart of the city.
I think in Boise you have a chance of getting a decent job. And I suspect their isn't such a disparity between income and home price, it's really bad in MT.
Actually I don't see very much good coming from an economy that is based on 'growth', what you are saying is that our future financial health is based on the fact that we have to continuely expand, build more roads (more traffic) bigger cities (more crime), more housing developements (less open space).....need I go on ? you get the picture. I don't see eating up your surrounds as viable option for an economy.
We are in MT growing as fast as other places......READ THE ARTICLE.....the bitterroot valley, who's county name escapes me rihgt now, is one of the FASTEST GROWING counties in the country. Put your thinking hat on, we're talking percentages.......what you should understand is that growth occurs exponentialy, meaning the larger things get the faster they grow, or 'need' to grow in order to maintain the economy. Imagine an expanding circle, and the lenght of the circuference. 50k double to 100k, double that again and your up to 200k, then 400k, boise just has a jump on us of a few years.
And just because it is happening everywhere...........well guess what, everywhere is not..........."the last best place".............maybe we ought to develople Yellowstone Park too, after all it's happening everywhere,,,,,MT is MT because it's not everywhere else, and if it hadn't been preserved to it's present state as the "the last best place", no one would be flooding in here......
Excuse me but I find this a pointless argument, I should just go write it in a book and hand it out, so as not to have to keep repeating myself over and over again. We like things the way they are here, SO DOES EVERYONE ELSE THAT"S WHY THEY WANT TO MOVE HERE.................so WHY ARE WE SCREWING IT UP BY CROWDING EVERYONE IN AND CHANGING IT ? GEEZ..................why is that so hard to understand...............we don't don't need no stinkin' growth, we can do just fine with out it. And every housing development and McMansion and vacation cabin that goes up in here just
adds to the cluter and gives vistors one less reason to come and vacation here........get it ? Not to mention I don't even drive down the bitterroot anymore to fish, it's just not very relaxing anymore, not to mention I'm scared to death to drive that hiway, come next month it will be a zoo of driftboats on the river for the early stonefly hatch, not exactly my idea of 'flyfishing in Montana'
But bring on the growth if it makes a buck ! What the heck, what's next do we start eating our young ? Grow Grow Grow until you get sick of it, then move someplace else, it's the American way, isn't that what I read about everyone on here saying they want to do.....they want to get out of the place they live because it grew to much, after they got what they could get out of the place, then complain about it instead of fixing it, just clear out, leave the mess (ie growth) for someone else to deal with, the American way. Vicious cycle isn't it ? Well, call me an idiot by I don't want to see the point of it and don't what to see it ruin this place to, if it already hasn't.
You wanna get outta' the city and crime, you don't have to move all the way up here, I'm sure you can find a lot of nice quite safe communities within a few hundred miles of where you live now. And the less people that move up here, the nicer it will be for you when you do come up to vacation, sounds like a win win situation to me.
Well you liked to move to Montana, so what if you don't get to do it, lots of us don't get what we want in life, I for one wanted to buy my own place here for the family, I didn't get to do it, the prices where going up faster then I could chase them with my income, now the kids (born here)are out on their own, and from the looks of things they won't get to do it either, don't worry we'll all live thru it.
But don't get me started...
Last edited by JoeJoeMan; 02-22-2007 at 11:58 PM..
I'm not a big fan of seasonal residents either.....
I don't mind that folks would come here, settle in, buy a house, have and raise a few kids.... but to buy a place, just to use for a few months out of the year, is not being a part of any community that I'm aware of.
I don't like "distant" or "aloof"..... I like true blue neighbors..... folks that have the nads to jump in and live a real life in Montana.
Folks who do the living in Montana for two months out of the year don't count as far as I'm concerned......
If you want vacation property, then get a time share in Mexico or something.
I can't speak directly about Idaho, but I do know that Idaho and Montana were considered "brothers" in the general sense for years...... Now, whenever I travel Idaho, there is always something new there that I choose to avoid.
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