Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Not only will it cost money to provide "free" IDs, the state will lose revenue it currently receives from non-driver ID cards.
Then there are provisional ballots required. We don't do provisional ballots now, so that will take time and money to implement in each our 87 counties. Plus, in the "now, now, now" world of today, made possible by modern computers and communication networks, provisional ballots will slow down the election reporting process, and delay the official results. Amendment proponents don't see this as bad policy and a step backwards?
And finally, there's section (C). What the heck does section C mean? How will absentee voters be subject to "substantially equivalent" verification?
And if there is a form of non-photographic identification that can be considered "substantially equivalent" for the purpose of absentee voting, but not for in-person voting, how do you reconcile the fact that different voters are subject to different requirements?
This isn't fine-tuning, these are substantial changes. It looks like a big mess waiting to happen, with years worth of court battles. It won't go smoothly if the state votes yes.
Last edited by Thegonagle; 09-03-2012 at 08:19 PM..
I am sorry, but I am just having a hard time believing that of all the ways the State spends money, you guys find voter ID to be the straw that breaks the camel's back. Perhaps I am wrong, but I don't recall all this anguish from some of the posters here about the dire straits of our financial situation in the threads about the Vikings stadium or light rail.
I think your real concern is something else. Why else who the thread be titled "disenfranchising Minnestoans?" That title speaks volumes, and it's not about cost.
This amendment will not deprive any qualified voter of their right to vote. Will it cost something? Certainly. Estimates from the Humphrey Institute put the cost at about $30 million, but that's likely to be overstating the case. It is a small cost, however, to ensure he integrity of our voting system here in MN, and could easily be offset with spending cuts elsewhere in government. And if we follow the experience in GA, minority participation in elections will rise with the adoption of this amendment.
Not at all. I was a supporter of the new football stadium and the light rail because I think both are important for the future of our state in terms of entertainment and transportation. Voter ID on the other hand is a complete throwaway. We have no voter fraud problem....as a result it makes absolutely zero sense to dump money on something like voter ID.
This is America. There's no requirement that a Citizen carry an ID.
A US citizen, who is age 18 or older, and is not a felon or is a convicted felon who has been fully discharged from his/her sentence, is "qualified" to vote.
In America, the burden of proof rests upon the state. Proof that I am qualified, beyond my legally sworn signature, should not rest upon me. I'm innocent. Why this burden on me? (Let the state keep my picture on file--they can pull it up when I sign in--why should I have to pull mine out?)
Rep. Bobby Joe Champion (DFL-Mpls) wants to make sure those who can vote do, and those who can’t don’t.
Champion sponsors HF718, which would require that felons be notified when their right to vote is taken away, and when it is restored. The House and Senate passed a similar bill last year, but it was vetoed....
Almost all known cases of voter fraud in the last several elections stemmed from convicted felons voting....
Being a fiscal conservative does not equal fiscal responsibility. I think we can all agree on that one.
Speaking of fiscal responsibility, I wish fiscal notes of estimated cost could be submitted with legislation. At least, I could only find the predicted cost of the amendment process but not the estimated cost of the amendment enaction.
I am astonished at the amount of time and money that has gone into addressing a supposed issue that has little evidence to support it. Voter fraud should be taken seriously but I am wondering how much money should be used to stop the 0.0005% committing the crime. Is there an amount that is too much? Is this really a means to boost employment numbers in the state? No extra money for the tireless volunteer work of the religious institutions and non-profits that have gone, and will go, into ensuring that everyone gets their free photo ID.
Not at all. I was a supporter of the new football stadium and the light rail because I think both are important for the future of our state in terms of entertainment and transportation. Voter ID on the other hand is a complete throwaway. We have no voter fraud problem....as a result it makes absolutely zero sense to dump money on something like voter ID.
The argument there is "no voter fraud problem" is simply not true.
We can debate exact numbers, but there is no question there are verified voter fraud convictions in MN - and this only counts those actually caught. As any person working within retail knows that only a small portion of shoplifters actually gets caught, it is reasonable to think that only a small portion of those actually committed voter fraud actually get caught - especially when the law allows the loophole the person has to "knowingly" commit voter fraud. How does the state prove the person "knew" they were committing fraud?
We can easily identify Voter Verification Cards that were returned to sender after being mailed out. Admittedly, not all were "voter fraud" but there were enough to raise questions - especially when the "home address" was a freeway or a city park.
We can identify 1,099 felons who were ineligible to vote in the 2008 election and voted for Franken for US Senate (in an election that was ultimately decided by 312 votes and provided the 60th vote that allowed for Obamacare).
On that note, Democrats were all about verifying votes when the initial vote count between Franken and Coleman in 2008 was initially in favor of Coleman by 725 votes (and I say that as not particularly a fan of Coleman, though admittedly marginally less a fan of Franken - they both were poor choices).
...Let's at least not continue the facade there is "no voter fraud problem".
It may be more Chicago's phrase, but there is a reason the phrase "vote early and vote often" exists; I'm not buying that MN is so pure and above reproach that fraud could never, ever exist in our state of people wearing only white robes as we walk down the street...
In the end, what this comes down to is those arguing for no voter ID are saying "we should continue to allow for the POSSIBILITY of voter fraud" with little real valid justification. As others have mentioned in this thread, it is more than ironic that at best after all sorts of government largesse and waste NOW you want to be fiscal conservatives. There are other motives at play...
We can debate exact numbers, but there is no question there are verified voter fraud convictions in MN...
The ones who registered but did not vote are not guilty of a crime. And Minnesota Majority's number of alleged cases has been shown to be grossly inaccurate. Those who did vote are being prosecuted, as they should be. But it would have been more efficient to turn them away on election day. Voter I.D. wouldn't help, since most former felons are allowed to get drivers licenses and all are allowed to get state IDs.
Quote:
As any person working within retail knows that only a small portion of shoplifters actually gets caught, it is reasonable to think that only a small portion of those actually committed voter fraud actually get caught...
There is evidence of shoplifting from retail stores in the form of inventory shrinkage. If voter impersonation was common, there would be evidence that someone else signed in before the legitimate voter arrived. There would be dozens of incident reports from this happening and there aren't.
Quote:
...especially when the law allows the loophole the person has to "knowingly" commit voter fraud. How does the state prove the person "knew" they were committing fraud?
We can easily identify Voter Verification Cards that were returned to sender after being mailed out. Admittedly, not all were "voter fraud" but there were enough to raise questions - especially when the "home address" was a freeway or a city park.
Homeless Americans don't have rights? Some of them fought for this country. Find a way to let them vote if they want to.
Quote:
We can identify 1,099 felons who were ineligible to vote in the 2008 election and voted for Franken for US Senate (in an election that was ultimately decided by 312 votes and provided the 60th vote that allowed for Obamacare).
I don't know where this number 1,099 comes from, but Byron York and Minnesota Majority sure seem fond of it. From everything I can tell, it's much lower. Is there a more legitimate source available? Furthermore, due to ballot secrecy, it can not be determined how anyone voted. But if I recall correctly, one of the first convictions was widely reported to have voted for Coleman by his own admission.
Quote:
On that note, Democrats were all about verifying votes when the initial vote count between Franken and Coleman in 2008 was initially in favor of Coleman by 725 votes (and I say that as not particularly a fan of Coleman, though admittedly marginally less a fan of Franken - they both were poor choices).
All above board, the recount and all court cases were webcast live as they happened. Also, the official canvassed machine count was 215 in favor of Coleman, not 725. (Coleman's lead was reported at 726 until the canvassing board found and corrected all data entry errors to arrive at the official election night result... Then began the hand recount and the ballot challenges.) There was no allegation of voter fraud from Coleman's team, and all legitimate arguments were considered in the courts determination of all eligible absentee votes.
Quote:
...Let's at least not continue the facade there is "no voter fraud problem".
The facade is that there is a voter ID fraud problem, and that flashing a piece of plastic will solve anything. It will only increase the burden of proof on those who don't already have that plastic.
Quote:
In the end, what this comes down to is those arguing for no voter ID are saying "we should continue to allow for the POSSIBILITY of voter fraud" with little real valid justification.
Not at all. We can improve voter ID to be virtually fraud-proof--and easy to prosecute--without this amendment and without disenfranchising anyone, while modernizing the most archaic part of our voter registration system, the paper "poll book." Modernizing this would allow them access to voter eligibility information in real time, and pull your state driver's license/ID photo. For those without ID, it would allow them to verify your identity the first time under the same rules the DPS uses to issue a photo ID, then photograph the voter, and keep that photo on file for ID verification next election.
As to solving the felonious voter problem, in addition passing the above referenced HF718 from 2011, requiring other state agencies, such as the Department of Corrections to share data with the Secretary of State's office would be a good start. If a person is serving a sentence for a felony, they shouldn't be allowed to vote. All they need to do is link two databases, and that would stop every last one, therefore eliminating over one hundred criminal cases every two years.
Last edited by Thegonagle; 09-04-2012 at 04:06 AM..
This is America. There's no requirement that a Citizen carry an ID.
Perhaps, but the Federal government demands that you show a government issued ID to get on a plane, or enter the Federal courthouse, and a passport to re-enter the country. The state demands that you carry a government issued card if you want to drive a car. Retailers often demand that you show a government issued ID if you want to write a check or use a credit card, banks want to see your ID before they'll open an account for you, and most hotels want to see ID if you want to rent a room. So while there may technically be no requirement to carry any, ID is required for certain activities, and voting should be added to the list.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thegonagle
We can improve voter ID to be virtually fraud-proof--and easy to prosecute--without this amendment and without disenfranchising anyone, while modernizing the most archaic part of our voter registration system, the paper "poll book." Modernizing this would allow them access to voter eligibility information in real time, and pull your state driver's license/ID photo.
I'm afraid this suggestion does a lot to shoot down your objections based on costs, since $29 million of the estimated $33 million in first year costs will be to implement electronic poll books. (See page 32 of this document.)
Oh, a problem exists all right -- a very BIG problem. You see, the problem is that minorities vote. And low-income people vote. And college students vote. And renters vote. And women vote. And people who are not white, male landowners vote.
That is the problem. And that is why we need voter ID; we need more restrictive voting laws; we need more laws restricting voter registration; we need more laws restricting WHEN you are allowed to vote; we need more laws making it easier for military members to vote, but to also make it harder (and perhaps illegal) for anyone who would conceivably vote Democratic. And we also need a bizarre patchwork of voting laws across the country, because for some reason, each state should be allowed to decide who gets to vote.
Do you understand the problem now? Do you understand why we have a voting crisis in this country? The very foundation of our democracy is at stake if anyone darker-skinned than the descendants of Leif Ericsson are allowed to vote!!
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
No extra money for the tireless volunteer work of the religious institutions and non-profits that have gone, and will go, into ensuring that everyone gets their free photo ID.
