Census reveals 'new poor' in many Twin Cities suburbs (Minneapolis: apartment complex, foreclosures)

[uptown_urbanist]

Some development in Apple Valley is hardly the same as Summit Avenue. If market demand was there, and an empty space available, for an affordable housing building on Summit then more power to them; Summit Avenue residents can certainly live adjacent to working class people, too.

I still fail to understand why the Cobblestone development is even an issue. If there are already small bungalows, town houses, etc., then what difference does it make if there's some below-market rentals across the street? How exactly does that bring down property values or bring a rise in crime? One Strib article cited a police officer saying that based on the other similar developments in the area they didn't anticipate any problems Affordable housing plans divide residents | StarTribune.com In other words, what's the big deal? And how come people believe that their irrational fears of people who make less money than them gets to dictate where such developments are placed? Zoning has its purposes, but it shouldn't used as a tool to keep poor or working class people out of their community. In Apple Valley's defense, it doesn't sound like it's the city that's the problem -- it's (some) of the residents.

[golfgal]

Originally Posted by uptown_urbanist

Some development in Apple Valley is hardly the same as Summit Avenue. If market demand was there, and an empty space available, for an affordable housing building on Summit then more power to them; Summit Avenue residents can certainly live adjacent to working class people, too.

I still fail to understand why the Cobblestone development is even an issue. If there are already small bungalows, town houses, etc., then what difference does it make if there's some below-market rentals across the street? How exactly does that bring down property values or bring a rise in crime? One Strib article cited a police officer saying that based on the other similar developments in the area they didn't anticipate any problems Affordable housing plans divide residents | StarTribune.com In other words, what's the big deal? And how come people believe that their irrational fears of people who make less money than them gets to dictate where such developments are placed? Zoning has its purposes, but it shouldn't used as a tool to keep poor or working class people out of their community. In Apple Valley's defense, it doesn't sound like it's the city that's the problem -- it's (some) of the residents.

When you become a property owner, it will make more sense to you.

[audadvnc]

Originally Posted by golfgal

When you become a property owner, it will make more sense to you.

Another subtle, backhand slam - I'm surprised and disappointed, golfgal. I thought better of you. Please stop the veiled context related insults.

I was a property owner for 15 years, and will be again within a month. Your opinion doesn't make sense to me.

[golfgal]

Originally Posted by audadvnc

Another subtle, backhand slam - I'm surprised and disappointed, golfgal. I thought better of your. Please stop the veiled insults.

I was a property owner for 15 years, and will be again within a month. Your opinion doesn't make sense to me.

You are reading into things WAY more than you should.

[uptown_urbanist]

Originally Posted by golfgal

When you become a property owner, it will make more sense to you.

I find that an offensive attitude. And honestly, I think it's that pressure to be homeowners that led the country into much of the recent economic mess; not everyone needs to buy a house. We actually had been actively looking at buying a home, but a recent job opportunity elsewhere has us reconsidering. And my views are not exclusive to renters (who can care just as much about their communities and their neighbors as homeowners, by the way); many of my family and friends own houses and they share the viewpoint. To make it into a "homeowners want to live in segregated communities" argument is looking at it with a very narrow view. SOME homeowners feel that way; many do not. I understand why people are concerned about property value; I do NOT understand why the proximity of working class people in itself is enough to bring property values down. Obviously we have different philosophies and we look for different things in a neighborhood. Equally obviously, with several million people in the metro area there are many different viewpoints on these issues.

[Libby01]

I would say that the older apartment buildings on my street (with lower rents) and the group home a few doors down don't affect my quality of life at all, nor were they a factor at all in the buying decision. No, they are not homeless shelters- but the apartments and some of the smaller houses definitely fit in the affordable housing category. Some could be Section 8, but I really don't know and wouldn't care if they were.

Older neighborhoods (not all) typically have a lot of income diversity built right into them. Many people who live in more urban or older areas like this diversity and actually seek it out. I love the neighborhoods in older White Bear Lake that have <$100K houses next to >$500K houses. There are plenty examples where this occurs and it works well. The need for designated low income housing only comes into play when you have newer developments where everything is built at once and there aren't options for lower income people. I've also seen brand new developments in some cities where there is mixed income, including low-income housing all together and they are very successful. They key is have a good management where things are well-maintained. That is true no matter what type of development it is.

[west336]

I think Apple Valley has a lot of Section 8, not HUD or anything like that (does HUD even exist anymore?). I know because my mother knew a friend who had a neighbor (yes, from Chicago -- don't knock Chicago) who had Section 8 assistance, but once she found out they were from the Chicago projects she knew they had Section 8.

Gotta love Section 8 a lot more than HUD!!!

[golfgal]

Originally Posted by uptown_urbanist

I find that an offensive attitude. And honestly, I think it's that pressure to be homeowners that led the country into much of the recent economic mess; not everyone needs to buy a house. We actually had been actively looking at buying a home, but a recent job opportunity elsewhere has us reconsidering. And my views are not exclusive to renters (who can care just as much about their communities and their neighbors as homeowners, by the way); many of my family and friends own houses and they share the viewpoint. To make it into a "homeowners want to live in segregated communities" argument is looking at it with a very narrow view. SOME homeowners feel that way; many do not. I understand why people are concerned about property value; I do NOT understand why the proximity of working class people in itself is enough to bring property values down. Obviously we have different philosophies and we look for different things in a neighborhood. Equally obviously, with several million people in the metro area there are many different viewpoints on these issues.

It certainly wasn't meant to be offensive-it is the same thing as saying that until you have your own child you really don't know what it is like to to be responsible for a child. When you own a property your priorities for that property are different then when you rent an apartment, nothing more, nothing less.

[Minnesota Spring]

Well, if you follow JHK or any peak oil theorist, the suburbs are going to be the ghettos of the future.
Even if our economy dosnt totally crash, I think places like Apple Valley and parts of Egan and Burnsville will not be real desirable places to live. As the housing stock ages, they will become more affordable than places in the city and property values will lower, schools will decline, homes will not be well kept cities will find it more difficult to maintian streets and parks with a declinig tax base (also no where to grow since they are built out). They will just be more rundown areas that are even further from the activity of the central cities and further from more comprehensive systems of mass transit.

[uptown_urbanist]

Originally Posted by golfgal

It certainly wasn't meant to be offensive-it is the same thing as saying that until you have your own child you really don't know what it is like to to be responsible for a child. When you own a property your priorities for that property are different then when you rent an apartment, nothing more, nothing less.

OK, I'll assume that it wasn't intended to be offensive. But I still think you're wrong; we're talking basic core values and opinions about what makes a good neighborhood here, and simply owning something doesn't make that much of a difference. Certainly I understand the importance of maintaining property values (or as renter, of preserving the neighborhood in which I live), but the fundamental difference is that not everyone believes that income level, by itself, defines what makes a good neighbor or not, or has a negative impact on property values. As noted, many people actively prefer diversity of all types, and that does include economic levels. Certainly I loved growing up in a house just a couple of blocks away from my low-income great-grandmother. If our neighborhood had been economically segregated that wouldn't have happened. My block itself had a mix of people, too, and that makes it -- I believe -- a better place to live. That vision doesn't anything to do with property ownership. I wouldn't want to live by a property managed by slumlords, or, for that matter, a house owned by irresponsible or problem neighbors. But low income or affordable housing doesn't automatically translate into trouble. People who put a high value on living only with neighbors from their own income bracket (or higher) may not like having lower income people move nearby, but that's not an opinion based on purely property value concerns. (and besides, I think that while they're entitled to that opinion, cities have no obligation to pay attention. Working class people have rights, too.)