[UpperPeninsulaRon]

Once again, let us look at facts. You say "They've successfully ended recycling...". Here are the facts. According to the Michigan Recycling Coalition in Lansing, Michigan has topped a 20% recycle rate in the state and it is part of a $2B industry. I would like to know your facts and who the "they" is who successfully ended recycling. Next "they" burried new technology. Ok, I'd be interested in your source documents. Take a look at the huge investment in research spending at major Universities and the subjects that they are working on. Take a look at fuel cell research. Once again, WHO is it that burried new technology? Go to the University of Michigan web site. As far as lining the pockets of the oil companies, I can show you a track going back thirty years that shows the correlation between the price of oil and the pump price of gasolene. It is a very statistically good fit. And the last time I looked, big oil does not set the price of a barrel of gas - it is our friends in the cartel who do things that are illegal in this country, i.e., fixing prices. And finally, will someone please tell me why atomic energy power plants are not the current technology's best solution. No greenhouse gases, no carbon footprints spent on mining coal. No great expense of shipping by rail and freighter. No huge investment on scrubbers. What is wrong with my anaylsis. The French must have gotten it - they currently derive 70% of their power from neclear power plants.

Originally Posted by TurboState

We've all been victimized by big oil and big corporate interests.

Witness the 1970's, after the first oil crisis, many countries like Brazil worked to remove their dependency on foreign oil. Not the US, we actually dramatically INCREASED our dependency and continued to pay farmers to NOT farm crops that could be refined into oil.

Witness the 1980's when Reagan shut down a vast majority of rail transport in this country. They went even further, defunded Amtrak, and moved commercial transport to big-rigs on the open road. A time when most countries were IMPROVING mass-transit, we were tearing up rails!

Witness the 1990s, the environmental movements were on the rise, remember Earth-Day? Remember recycling craze? Remember the big 90's push towards alternative energy? Remember GM building an EFFECTIVE electric car then quietly destroying them?

Witness the 2000's, the denial years. They've successfully ended recycling in many major cities, they've squished alternative energy. They've buried new technology. In the process lined the pockets of big corporations, big oil, all at the expense of advancement.

Don't kid yourself we should all be riding in 100MPG or higher vehicles and/or cheap mass transit devices by this time. But there has been a concerted effort to keep us addicted to fossil fuels by specific big business/government interests. Tesla showed us free-energy engines over 70 years ago and the best we've been able to do is 20MPG on our average car?

Sorry, I am not buying it anymore. Its time to take a stand from these muppets and pull out their purse strings.

[Schaumburger]

I don't want to be like the French.

You just list the negative sides of coal, now my friend list the negatives to nuclear. You WILL run into the same problems and more. Expense, risk, and fractured infrastructure. You mine uranium, you transport it, you enrich it, you store it, you use it, you waste it, you store it, then you transport it again.... There's more to this then meets the eye.

Currently, the Earth is in itself a power plant! There is more economic wealth and environmental sustainability found in renewable energy then this archaic nuclear and coal energy pill.

Get with the program our now and our future isn't nuclear or coal, but the sun and earth these are the forever suppliers of energy -- they will never go away.

[Marka]

Excuse me, are we still in Michigan here? Because if we're not, this thread gets moved to General US.

[Schaumburger]

Why yes we are in Michigan. West Michigan is becoming greater in acknowledging alternative energy resources.

[GuardRail]

Well bubbagirl.

I can advise you to visit MichiganGasPrices.com where you'll see the current prices around Michigan. There's also LansingGasPrices.com where I live. Watch the prices, the articles and even the notices amoung others. We try to watch out for each other and alert when the prices are about to go up. You should know that prices may be dropping even more and a $3 price isn't looking as likely as it did a short while ago.

Are you considering biodiesel or E85 for fuel?

[Bhaalspawn]

Originally Posted by wallstreet1986

Very smart. Yeah we are being conditioned and its inevitably that gas prices may rise that high at some point. There is a lot of growth in human population and demand for new oil from third world countries. Hence the pace of gas hikes is faster and probably more threatening.

I'm under the impression, based on the amount of mainstream media coverage that it receives, that most Americans are almost completely unaware of the issue of population explosion, both at home and worldwide.

When you combine population explosion with developement and increased use of automobiles and products made from petroleum in the third world, of course the prices are going to go up.

The other factor is that the supply of oil is essentially finite. If the demand increases, it isn't as simple as a new firm's entering the market to help fill some of the demand or for an oil company to increase its productive capacity. According to the Peak Oil theory, the world's oil fields have peaked at their maximum amount of production and while demand is growing, the supply of oil is decreasing. Consequently, since our economy is based on fossil fuels, Peak Oil could cause a worldwide calamity, resulting in the deaths of billions in what some call a "die off". Americans would be shocked to see what people are talking about on the PeakOil.com discussion forums. The subjects tend to involve survivalism, small farming, and how to fend off bandits. The assumption is that automobiles and mechanized farm equipment will be gone along wth most of our industrial society.

Originally Posted by wallstreet1986

Some of the cars that come out are pretty nice -- Toyota Scion xA - i would like one of those.

I've had my eye on a Scion xA, too.

[Bhaalspawn]

Originally Posted by Schaumburger

It's not so much an American transit problem, it's a Michigan transit problem.
It's evident Michiganders don't realize what they can have as other more extensive transit systems that other cities and states have had now for decades. For instance, in suburban Chicago I can choose between bus or train to get around. It depends on if the society in which you live values an extensive public transport system. In many states and cities its a value that is almost taken for granted. In Michigan, its just a social service.

Mass transit sounds good, and it's touchy-feeley and all, but the Detroit area is a little different from Chicago. In Chicago a huge amount of people commute from the suburbs into downtown every day. In contrast, Detroit doesn't have nearly as much activity as Chicago's downtown and a great many offices are located in the suburbs. So, a subway that ran from Livonia to downtown Detroit might be nice, but what if you live in Livonia and work in Troy? What if there is a subway line that goes out to Troy but the station is 3 miles from your office? In contrast, in Chicago people would either walk to the subway station, take a bus, or drive and park (presumably that's an option for the outlying suburban stations), then, after arriving downtown, they'd only need to walk a couple city blocks to their office.

If we were gods then one solution might be to clear off the northwest portion of the city and build a real Chicago-style downtown there and have all of the offices throughout the region locate in that area, but that's not going to happen.

[Siberia]

Strange that everyone is concerned about the "tax/gallon" increase only, which occurs over three years at three pennies per year. Thus in 2008 the three pennies on say 1000 gallons (1000 gallons = 25,000 miles for a 25mpg vehicle) would be only $30...

Yet nobody is outraged at the 50% increase for vehicle registration? For a two car family with modest $20,000 vehicles, the $103/year registration per PER $20K vehicle will rise to $155 each immediately. This is a $96/year increase in 2008...that is indexed to inflation which means it rises 3-3.5% per year for the rest of your vehicles life. So in 8 years when your vehicle is worth $3,000...your registration will be actually much higher than when your vehicle was worth $20,000 new. Pretty sick, yet slick...

Now I see why governments make taxes and fees so complicated, as the majority will only focus on the most obvious and ignore the less obvious changes. Very smart on the governments part...clever, just like having SS/medicare taken out as only half the amount with the emloyer paying the rest. People think they are "really" paying 50% less, even though the employers reduce salaries accordingly to fund the other 50% sent to Uncle Sam.

Anyway, when all said and told, in 2010 a two vehicle family will be paying over $200 more per year IF this increase gets passed...but after a graduated income tax and sales tax are added, the $200/year will be a very small part of the thousands extra each family will be paying...IF one factors in alll the tax increase changes on the table needed to keep this wasteful Michigan government from having to make needed cost cutting measures. For example, booze in Michigan is taxed 65% "behind the curtains", and the new amount proposed is 75%. But as this is not taxed at "the counter"...nobody will really care much as it isn't obvious or well known, and those who figure it out will cross the borders and buy in bulk when they purchase their out of state cigs that cost $2/pack less...which hurts business revenue and actually lowers tax dollars sent to the state. Wow, increase taxes yet receive less tax money...good move Michigan!

In summary, is it any wonder that this year 42 states have more money than needed for their budgets, yet Michigan is near bankruptcy to the point where nobody on Wall Street will loan the state money anymore? If the government shuts down to fix this funding crisis, I hope they shut down indefinately and Indiana adopts us as part of their state...LOL

[Schaumburger]

Originally Posted by Bhaalspawn

Mass transit sounds good, and it's touchy-feeley and all, but the Detroit area is a little different from Chicago. In Chicago a huge amount of people commute from the suburbs into downtown every day. In contrast, Detroit doesn't have nearly as much activity as Chicago's downtown and a great many offices are located in the suburbs. So, a subway that ran from Livonia to downtown Detroit might be nice, but what if you live in Livonia and work in Troy? What if there is a subway line that goes out to Troy but the station is 3 miles from your office? In contrast, in Chicago people would either walk to the subway station, take a bus, or drive and park (presumably that's an option for the outlying suburban stations), then, after arriving downtown, they'd only need to walk a couple city blocks to their office.

If we were gods then one solution might be to clear off the northwest portion of the city and build a real Chicago-style downtown there and have all of the offices throughout the region locate in that area, but that's not going to happen.

Sure Chicago is big and all, but mass transit works in much much smaller cities. Too bad for Michigan. The situations of yesterday put both Grand Rapids and Detroit into a quandary. This is the situation Michigan let itself get into. Whether it's from the GM conspiracy to destroy our rail infrastructure or the State's inability to think outside of the box and see what other states are doing. Our viability as a state in the new economy means spending money on things that matter now.

[magikald]

Mass transit will never happen. Michigan is the automotive capital of the world................