[Angel Bear]

Retraining can be anything...Not just a university education. I worked for a while in the legal field myself after college and decided law school wasn't for me. I had a big 180 turn in my life due to illness, so I went to massage therapy school It was great. I changed again, but have never looked back.

There's many other ways to get training or education that don't require you to get an expensive degree. However, the statistics I've seen have shown that people with at least a bachelor's degree earn much more money, etc. than those with just a high school education.

It's really up to you to decide what you want to train for though. If I wasn't running my own business right now, I'd think about going to beauty school 'cause I love hairstyling stuff or maybe I'd get certifed to work on small engines--I love mechanical stuff too--even though I'm a 'chick' LOL

There's so many fields out there today--so many more options than just working in a factory for 'The Man' I'd find what makes you happy and then, figure out how to do it and then, do it. Life is short. This is not a dress rehearsal

[Bhaalspawn]

Originally Posted by Angel Bear

There's many other ways to get training or education that don't require you to get an expensive degree. However, the statistics I've seen have shown that people with at least a bachelor's degree earn much more money, etc. than those with just a high school education.

That's what the stats show, but it does not logically follow from the stats that if 100% or even 50% of the working-aged population had four year degrees that what the stats show would still hold true. That over-cited stat needs to be taken within in the context of the percentage of the working-aged population that has four year college degrees. In other words, if you double the number of people with engineering degrees it does not necessarily follow that the number of engineering jobs at prevailing wage rates would also double.

Regarding the auto plant where the company is requiring the bachelors degrees, does the job make any real use of the college degrees or are they merely using college degrees as a proxy for responsibility and a certain base level of intelligence? Do the jobs require specific college degrees, such as engineering or computer programming, or is it merely sufficient for people to have four year college degrees in any field (in which case the doing of the job doesn't actually require a college degree). In other words, is the four year college degree being treated as a second high school degree?

I'm not an anti-college education brute who wields a wrench; I have three college degrees myself, including a Masters and a professional degree. However, I am very skeptical of this notion that education is the solution to our economic problems. I suspect that many employers really require bachelors degrees merely as evidence that an applicant has a certain base level of intelligence and as a sign of responsibility and work ethic. I suspect that only a small percentage of jobs actually make use of a college degree. I can understand how having an engineering degree or a chemistry degree or an accounting degree or an MBA or a law degree or an MD would be needed for certain jobs, but those jobs really aren't as plentiful as people might want to believe. I wouldn't be surprised if, in reality, less than 15% of all of the jobs in the nation actually made direct use of a college education.

Thus, my view is that Americans are over-educated and that as a society we are spending time and money on college education that is not needed, which means that it is a tremendous economic inefficiency that is resulting in our having less material wealth. Also, I believe that Americans are now engaged in what I like to call an education arms race. That is to say, I believe that people are obtaining college degrees, not because they are needed for the functioning of the economy, but in order to better compete in the job market. (If you can hire someone with a masters degree for a job that really only requires someone with a bachelors degree then why not?) In the past a bachelors degree was sufficient to almost guarantee a secure and fulfilling career, but as people flooded into the universities it became necessary to obtain masters degrees and professional degrees in order to distinguish yourself. Thus, I've coined the phrase "education arms race" to refer to people's attempting to gain a marketplace advantage by attempting to trump competitors with lower degrees. I am certainly guilty of that myself.

I do believe that it is in individuals' selfish interests to obtain a solid four year college degree in order to have a license to hunt for a career job. However, from a societal standpoint it's time to question whether this huge investment of people's time and money in higher education makes economic sense and whether we might be better off identifying and implementing better economic policies so that fewer people feel pressured to obtain college education and so that those people who do have college degrees will be able to use them. (It's difficult to use your computer programming degree when the computer programming jobs have been shipped to India or when you have to train your replacements who are here on work visas before you get laid off.)

Seriously, the value of a college education is almost becoming a dogma. I first began to question the value of college education about a decade ago after reading discussions that occurred amongst PhD scientists on webpages and on a certain Usenet newsgroup where people were discussing science careers and the sad plight of science PhDs, including those with life science degrees (which are now a dime-a-dozen). Consequently, many of those disgruntled PhDs went to law school in the hopes of becoming rich patent lawyers and now the field of biotech patent law, which has two barriers to entry, has a large oversupply of qualified entry-level people with two advanced degrees. First people obtained undergraduate degrees in chemistry or biology, but those degrees were a dime-a-dozen. So then they sought out PhDs, but then they were still a dime-a-dozen. Then they headed to law school and there was still an oversupply.

It's the education arms race at work. The arms race is driven by an inability or decreased likelihood of being able to establish a secure career with lesser education as a result of increased competition, much of which is being driven by the overall state of the nation's economy. Ideally, at a state of 100% economic efficiency, everyone who is worthy and who obtains college education would make direct use of their education in their jobs.

[M TYPE X]

Originally Posted by Bhaalspawn

It's the education arms race at work. The arms race is driven by an inability or decreased likelihood of being able to establish a secure career with lesser education as a result of increased competition, much of which is being driven by the overall state of the nation's economy. Ideally, at a state of 100% economic efficiency, everyone who is worthy and who obtains college education would make direct use of their education in their jobs.

hear hear, it's a disaster out here!

[ohbabe0123]

hello,
we are originally from Flint Mi, moved 10 years ago to Naples, Fl, yes it is clean here, and sunny most of the time, but I also cannot afford to purchase a home here, should have bought when we first moved, oh well. You can drive 30 minutes from here and arrive in Ft. Myers, and parts of it look just like Flint/Detroit, so no matter where you live, there are bad areas. We seem to over look the good and just point out the bad.. I am relocating to Burton MI, and I will find employment and make my house payment, which I am purchasing, and I will make it. I have 6 children, 2 older, and 4 still at home, we will Michiganders again, Florida was fun, and we learned alot, but we are all happy to go home to MI. Have faith.. Believe in something... what have you got too loose?

[Frankawitz]

Boy when she made that statement who knew she was giving a warning to get out of Michigan, If this Governor had a plan when is it going to show up? She asked Voters what would they do if they were Governor. Well I would have said 1. I would sit down with auto industry folks and tell them I want you to design a engine carburator system that could be built and refit to All auto's in the State to run on E85 fuels. then 2. I would go to the oil and gas industry and tell them I want a plant to product E85 fuels. 3. I would tell all farmers that we will buy their corps to product E85 fuel.
Now I know people are going to say well they build new cars already like that, and I would say yes but! we need a new line of jobs, and to take all the cars and trucks in the State and change them all over to E85 fuels like the people of Brazil did back in 1980. You don't think this would create jobs?

[JimmyInGreatLakes]

I agree with the notion of a "college arms race". The cost of college (and yearly tuition hikes) gets 1/10 the press that the price of health care gets yet I think it's a serious problem since society has made it so important to get a degree. Why aren't colleges accountable for their high prices like everybody wishes upon the health care industry? One problem I believe is all the worthless classes they require for a degree that are outside the spectrum of specific skills most undergraduates are trying to acquire for a real job. Most of these skills could be learned in 2 years or less plus some on-the-job experience with lifelong learning at a fraction of the cost.

[daphene180]

I live in Detroit and all I can say to you is, RIGHT ON! RIGHT ON! I for one am thankful for the Union. I'm not a union worker but if I was going to support anything it would be the union. A few years ago they stood up for my husband's rights and it helped us "BIG TIME".

[lavendersunrise]

Originally Posted by JimmyInGreatLakes

I agree with the notion of a "college arms race". The cost of college (and yearly tuition hikes) gets 1/10 the press that the price of health care gets yet I think it's a serious problem since society has made it so important to get a degree. Why aren't colleges accountable for their high prices like everybody wishes upon the health care industry? One problem I believe is all the worthless classes they require for a degree that are outside the spectrum of specific skills most undergraduates are trying to acquire for a real job. Most of these skills could be learned in 2 years or less plus some on-the-job experience with lifelong learning at a fraction of the cost.

College tuition is completely obsurb and only gaining in expense every year. I graduated from Wayne State Univ. in 2004, went back for my Master's and I currently have two classes remaining. However, I can't afford the last two classes and see no sense in getting them since I've been unemployed (or might as well be) since graduating.

I currently substitute teach, which requires a degree or at the bare minimum 90 credit hours from a 4 year university (3/4 of a degree), however, pays less than most receptionists make.

Granholm continues to push higher education, but what happens when we graduate and have loans to pay off? I was born and raised in SE Michigan, there really isn't anywhere else like it (trust me I've been looking ), I don't want to leave my family, but can I really afford to stay?

There are a LOT of people moving out, not just those being laid off, but young people - who in 10-15 years the state is going to NEED when the Baby Boomers retire and they need their healthcare/social security funded, unfortunately, whose going to want to move back to a state that did very little to help them in the beginning.

I don't think people realize that currently all the college grads that are moving are, for the most part, unattached. When they move they are more than likely going to buy houses, get married, have families and that move back is not going to be as easy as the first one out.

[bubbagirl]

Originally Posted by Frankawitz

Boy when she made that statement who knew she was giving a warning to get out of Michigan, If this Governor had a plan when is it going to show up? She asked Voters what would they do if they were Governor. Well I would have said 1. I would sit down with auto industry folks and tell them I want you to design a engine carburator system that could be built and refit to All auto's in the State to run on E85 fuels. then 2. I would go to the oil and gas industry and tell them I want a plant to product E85 fuels. 3. I would tell all farmers that we will buy their corps to product E85 fuel.
Now I know people are going to say well they build new cars already like that, and I would say yes but! we need a new line of jobs, and to take all the cars and trucks in the State and change them all over to E85 fuels like the people of Brazil did back in 1980. You don't think this would create jobs?

I am not for or against what is going on with Granholm, just stating an observation... I am a lifelong Michigander, whether I like it or not, and am a part of the horse industry with 7 4-legged equines under my care. I just had a conversation with a retired Purina sales rep who specialized in large animal feeds. There ARE E85 plants coming to town - 5 to be exact that we are starting out with. Over the course of the past year, the value of corn in MI has increased by about 4x per bushel and there are a lot of farmers jumping aboard this train - so much that it is projected the hay supply for livestock owners (mainly cattle and horses) will be suffering a severe shortage as so many farmers are converting their fields, and we can expect the price per unit of hay to double or triple this summer. The horse market is already in dire straights in MI due to the mass layoffs, job loss, foreclosures, etc, and this will just be the nail in the coffin; the value of horses have dropped by about 60-75% over the course of of 2-3 years in MI. Not only are young people, like myself, considering moving out of state because we truly cannot afford to be here, but this will also start taking middle-age through baby boomers with it who are horse hobbyists; I personally know at least 10 horse families that are either in the process of moving or seriously considering it. Not too many people consider that the horse market generates several million, if not into the billions, in revenue all over the state every year. This is all a dilema and eventually something will have to give. Meanwhile, the value of land has dropped like a rock and folks all over, those that are still holding off foreclosure, are finding themselves owing significantly more on their property than it's current value. This is where you see the buy-out GM workers complaining. My uncle has been offered a buy out for $100K to retire early, but his is easily $300K in debt with no other job skills and no ability to relocate without completely losing everything.

The only thing keeping myself and my hubby in this state is the fact that we have too many responsibilities holding us down. We've both been laid off over the course of the past year, conveniently just after we purchased a wonderful parcel of land to build our home on. As our unemployment ran out with no solid job prospects (many interviews later, but nothing landed), we took the money intended to build our home and started our own business. To make this sacrifice, we moved in with family members (rent a room with 2 dogs), barely hanging onto the horses (we wouldn't be able to sell them if we wanted to due to the market), and have made ends meet this far *knock on wood*. We talk daily about prospects out of state, but you can't hardly get a job out of state unless you've already set up shop where you're looking. I am not sure what the state will have to do to change things around, but eventually the bottom is going to fall out. Education is not the answer, as previously said, because it comes with no promises. Those with their bachelors, or worse, masters, are still not finding reasonable jobs and their are no promises that jobs will be available once they obtain their degrees.

[M TYPE X]

Originally Posted by lavendersunrise

There are a LOT of people moving out, not just those being laid off, but young people - who in 10-15 years the state is going to NEED when the Baby Boomers retire and they need their healthcare/social security funded, unfortunately, whose going to want to move back to a state that did very little to help them in the beginning.

Yes, but then all the greedy old people and unionists will be DEAD!

... don't look at me, when "they" are gone, I will be very happy to move back to my beautiful home state.

Post-GM/Ford/Chrysler bankruptcy, Michigan will be a better place. Not for those who live through it, but those of us who fled will come back to rightfully claim what is ours. There will be plenty for all, without $60/hour union janitors and carpetbagging Canadian politicians!