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Ok, so I have been looking at some links (thank you kind city-data people for your help). It seems Dover-Sherborn has the best school (high school) in the area. So, I was kind of expecting property prices to be sky-high, but (the odd one aside), they aren't. (I mean by Boston standards, of course.) I was looking at Brookline earlier, and for the same price range we can invariably get significantly bigger houses on much bigger properties - in fact, some so big that we just wouldn't even consider them because upkeep of more than an acre just sounds like way too much hassle. But at the same time, I'm kind of amazed that we are even seeing a slew of properties that size that fall in our price range in the Boston area...
I'm presuming one of the reasons for the better value is distance from Boston - but is the commute/public transport access really so much worse out there? It's clearly not the schools, so if anyone has any insight into why these areas seem such good value versus somewhere like Brookline or Newton, I'd love to hear it. And if there are any particular advantages (such as if one works in a particular area that it's actually a very easy commute), would love to hear those too. Thanks in advance!
Quote: "I'm presuming one of the reasons for the better value is distance from Boston - but is the commute/public transport access really so much worse out there?"
Hi. Yes, that is the reason for the price differential. Inside I-95 (Rt 128) prices jump. It is not only a question of commute for some people (though that would be the main issue, especially in winter); there is the perceived notion of being isolated during non-work hours. There's a lot to do in Boston and immediate suburbs -- lots of restaurants, venues, etc. And of course Logan Airport is much more convenient if you're close to Mass Pike (i.e., Newton, parts of Brookline, WAtertown even).
Dover-Sherborn is lovely...and rural by Boston standards. But for someone who doesn't care whether or not they live "out in the country" it's probably a great deal. I do think that lots of buyers in this area, however, do care. It's a matter of preference and for whatever reason a majority of buyers in this area seem to want to be closer in. The closer in the more expensive.
I think some of the barely-outside-of-Rt128 towns reflect this as well. Wellesley is not as convenient as Newton/Brookline/Cambridge to Boston -- but it isn't nearly as removed as Dover-Sherborn. Other towns, like Needham are also benefiting from the "middle distance".
Dover-Sherborn is lovely...and rural by Boston standards. But for someone who doesn't care whether or not they live "out in the country" it's probably a great deal. I do think that lots of buyers in this area, however, do care. It's a matter of preference and for whatever reason a majority of buyers in this area seem to want to be closer in...
When it comes to selecting a place to live there has been a desire in recent years, especially among younger buyers, for increased "walkability." Dover-Sherborn (S) are posh and bucolic, but the antithesis of walkable. I knew someone from one of those towns who would leave to go to a friend's home in another community in order to take their kids trick-or-treating at Halloween. These people admitted that they felt isolated in D-S.
What more, unlike most other areas in the area, there is very little in terms of central business districts in these towns. You have to drive in D-S towns a fair distance in order to get darn near anything, especially to find a lot of dining family options. D-S are scenic, and thus desirable for those looking for something like a "gentleman's country estate" close to Boston. But for many other people who seek to live in a place with a vibrant neighborhood and/or plenty of local shopping/dining options, the towns are just too rural. Of course, the residents in D-S like the rural feel of their community and very aggressively use zoning restrictions to do everything humanly possible to effectively place "keep out" signs at their town borders in order to resist development and maintain the bucolic charm. But in that way, they can be very insular communities, too.
I think to some degree Sherborn is less well known than communities like Wellesley or Brookline. It's a pretty small community. We only have about 4,000 residents.
I think it really depends on what you're looking for in a community. We love Sherborn because the community protects open space, has wonderful trails, and feels like a world away, yet is close to the Mass Pike and there's train access nearby. I used to work on Boylston St & the commute was fine. We like that it's peaceful & wooded, that the pond doesn't allow motorboats to pollute it, and that there aren't big chain stores here. Most of my friends here moved here for the schools. We moved here because we wanted a place that didn't feel overbuilt and filled with Mcmansions.
For some people it would be frustrating not to have lots of stores right in town. For us, it's fine that we're just a few miles from Roche Bros & other stores. There definitely is a lack of walkability here. For ex, I would love to be able to walk or bike to town center but I'm too wimpy to do it on the windy road into town. Here's my two cents on the pros & cons:
- Schools are top rated (Boston Magazine ranks it #1 + the schools earned recognition multiple times in U.S. News & World Report for college readiness.)
- We have oodles of beautiful, well maintained trails.
- I love Farm Pond & am excited to take sailing lessons there.
- We have easy highway access.
- We're close enough to Natick & Wellesley to have easy access to plenty of restaurants & shops.
- There are lots of great community organizations, including wonderful newcomers/neighbors club.
Cons
- High taxes
- Not much of a town center (blink & you'll miss it)
- Lack of walkability
Although I lived in the Metrowest area most of my whole life I never really knew much about Sherborn but now that we've lived here I don't think I'd move anyplace else. :-)
Quote: "I'm presuming one of the reasons for the better value is distance from Boston - but is the commute/public transport access really so much worse out there?"
Hi. Yes, that is the reason for the price differential. Inside I-95 (Rt 128) prices jump. It is not only a question of commute for some people (though that would be the main issue, especially in winter); there is the perceived notion of being isolated during non-work hours. There's a lot to do in Boston and immediate suburbs -- lots of restaurants, venues, etc. And of course Logan Airport is much more convenient if you're close to Mass Pike (i.e., Newton, parts of Brookline, WAtertown even).
Dover-Sherborn is lovely...and rural by Boston standards. But for someone who doesn't care whether or not they live "out in the country" it's probably a great deal. I do think that lots of buyers in this area, however, do care. It's a matter of preference and for whatever reason a majority of buyers in this area seem to want to be closer in. The closer in the more expensive.
I think some of the barely-outside-of-Rt128 towns reflect this as well. Wellesley is not as convenient as Newton/Brookline/Cambridge to Boston -- but it isn't nearly as removed as Dover-Sherborn. Other towns, like Needham are also benefiting from the "middle distance".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Learning Everyday
When it comes to selecting a place to live there has been a desire in recent years, especially among younger buyers, for increased "walkability." Dover-Sherborn (S) are posh and bucolic, but the antithesis of walkable. I knew someone from one of those towns who would leave to go to a friend's home in another community in order to take their kids trick-or-treating at Halloween. These people admitted that they felt isolated in D-S.
What more, unlike most other areas in the area, there is very little in terms of central business districts in these towns. You have to drive in D-S towns a fair distance in order to get darn near anything, especially to find a lot of dining family options. D-S are scenic, and thus desirable for those looking for something like a "gentleman's country estate" close to Boston. But for many other people who seek to live in a place with a vibrant neighborhood and/or plenty of local shopping/dining options, the towns are just too rural. Of course, the residents in D-S like the rural feel of their community and very aggressively use zoning restrictions to do everything humanly possible to effectively place "keep out" signs at their town borders in order to resist development and maintain the bucolic charm. But in that way, they can be very insular communities, too.
Some really great responses here to the OP's question. These two responses above I think really highlight the reasons why Dover and Sherborn are not good fits for some people. They lack public transportation, shopping and dining options, highway access, a developed town center, and even something that many would consider a basic necessity like a grocery store. The school system is absolutely top notch in D-S but the town lacks a lot of "man made" ammenities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmann-sherborn
I think to some degree Sherborn is less well known than communities like Wellesley or Brookline. It's a pretty small community. We only have about 4,000 residents.
I think it really depends on what you're looking for in a community. We love Sherborn because the community protects open space, has wonderful trails, and feels like a world away, yet is close to the Mass Pike and there's train access nearby. I used to work on Boylston St & the commute was fine. We like that it's peaceful & wooded, that the pond doesn't allow motorboats to pollute it, and that there aren't big chain stores here. Most of my friends here moved here for the schools. We moved here because we wanted a place that didn't feel overbuilt and filled with Mcmansions.
For some people it would be frustrating not to have lots of stores right in town. For us, it's fine that we're just a few miles from Roche Bros & other stores. There definitely is a lack of walkability here. For ex, I would love to be able to walk or bike to town center but I'm too wimpy to do it on the windy road into town. Here's my two cents on the pros & cons:
- Schools are top rated (Boston Magazine ranks it #1 + the schools earned recognition multiple times in U.S. News & World Report for college readiness.)
- We have oodles of beautiful, well maintained trails.
- I love Farm Pond & am excited to take sailing lessons there.
- We have easy highway access.
- We're close enough to Natick & Wellesley to have easy access to plenty of restaurants & shops.
- There are lots of great community organizations, including wonderful newcomers/neighbors club.
Cons
- High taxes
- Not much of a town center (blink & you'll miss it)
- Lack of walkability
Although I lived in the Metrowest area most of my whole life I never really knew much about Sherborn but now that we've lived here I don't think I'd move anyplace else. :-)
As KMann points out, what the town does not lack is natural ammenities like ponds, wooded lots, and walking trails. I also do not doubt KMann's assertion that there are plenty of great, friendly folks in these towns. I find that's a common trait of many of the towns in this area. I think, for the right person, D&S are great places to live.
However, my experience is that the majority of people want the "man made" ammenities (i.e. shopping, restaurants, public transportation, highway access, etc) that D&S lack. In today's day and age, most people don't want to take time out of their day to drive to the next town to grocery shop or grab some lunch or catch the train to work. They don't want to sacrifice an extra 20 minutes from their day because they live further from the highway and have a longer commute. How else can you explain real estate values over the last 6 years in Sudbury, Wayland, Dover, and Sherborn vs what's happened in Needham, Newton, Brookline, and Wellesley. Towns that lacked "man made" ammenities didn't do so well while towns that had them flourished. There are certainly people who don't want these "man made" ammenities though and they find them unsightly. However, I would say in this area those people are the smaller group.
In the end, all these towns that have been mentioned are wonderful places to live. One of my favorite things about this area is the variety of choices we have from the woodsy areas of Dover to the urban areas of Brookline. What it comes down to is: where will you be most happy? Do you mind driving a few miles to the grocery store? Are you outdoors-y? If so, D&S are great places for you. If not and you want walkability, ease of commute, etc then maybe you might want to consider places like Needham, Newton, and Wellesley.
As a side note, I absolutely love that KMann is on this forum. Her personal preferences are so different than mine. I could never see myself living where she does. It just wouldn't suit me. I'm not outdoors-y and I go to the market almost every day so living nearby one is important. Conversely, she'd probably hate living where I do. She'd probably say it's too congested for her with not enough outdoor activities. It's great to have both opinions represented here because I certainly realize not everyone can relate to me and not everyone can relate to her. Between the two of us, I think we can offer some solid real estate advice to a lot of people.
Thanks for the opinions, everyone. Tbh, it doesn't sound like D-S would be a great fit for us given what has been said - although it does sound perfect for some people, I do think we would prefer somewhere a bit more urban.
Can anyone comment on Needham specifically - I see it mentioned as kind of "halfway" - and again prices seem to buy you more than Brookline, though the schools seem a bit lower in the rankings, which is a bit of a niggle.
This whole school "rankings" thing is so blown out of proportion in my mind. I'm not saying they're useless, but they need to be taken with a healthy "grain of salt." For example, Dover-Sherborn is ranked #1 by Boston Magazine but ranked #6 by US News and World Report. It seems no one can quite agree on what makes a school system the "best." Newton typically has a top ranked school system, but there are countless discussions on here about how many Newton parents think the school system is not as good as "advertised." In my opinion, if you can find a school sytem that most agree is good then you need to also do some research and make sure it will also be a good fit for you and your child. Visiting the schools is always a good idea.
Anyway, as far as lifestyle goes, Needham has a lot to offer. Easy highway access, public transportation options, a nicely developed town center with cute shops and restaurants, and multiple grocery stores. The people are very friendly and we have a number of active civic and social organisations in town. While we don't have big box stores in Needham we have easy access to major shopping areas in Natick/Framingham and Dedham. Most of Needham is fairly densely populated with average lot size around 10,000 sq ft. There are parts of town with acre zoning but those areas tend to be more pricey.
If you're considering Needham you may want to look at Wellesley as well (ranked #11 in Boston Magazine). I often find that my clients who like the feel of Wellesley also like the feel of Needham and vise versa. Also, another source to check out re: school info is greatschools.org because it does include some parent reviews. Not enough to really be statistically significant or anything but I think it's nice to hear about firsthand experience in the schools in addition to the rankings. Also, I believe the reason the rankings vary from Boston Magazine to U.S. News & World Report & the like is that their methodologies vary slightly. Each site lists how they came up with their rankings. For example, U.S. News & World Report focuses a lot on college readiness. Anyhow, I hope that's helpful.
Is it true that you don't get your trash picked up in Wellesley though??
Mike, thanks for the hint about visiting schools. Are they quite receptive to that, do you know? We certainly don't need an acre, but I would prefer not to feel like I am living right on top of my neighbors, or that there is hardly a yard for the kids to play in. 10000 sq ft would be just fine for us. From a look at the real estate listings, it looks like we could find some quite lovely places in Needham in our price bracket.
The Town of Wellesley doesn't offer curbside pickup. There are local companies that you'd pay a small fee to do this. That's what we do here. We have a company that picks up trash and recycling. They even come into our garage to get it so I don't have to bring it to the curb. Not sure if they do that in Wellesley but I like that I never have to worry about taking the trash out. :-)
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