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Kit Pelletier had a general store and campground on the St John River. He was bilingual. He was so bilingual that he would change languages in mid-sentence. It confused the tourists, but lots of people did that since they spoke "Valley French".
My house was built in 1885. In 1942, all the young men had joined the services and there was nobody to cut wood for the mills. Logging companies put ads in the paper up in Madawaska for wood cutters. The Daigle family moved down to Lee and bought the house I now own. Since 1885, I'm the third owner. I bought it in 1983. The "Daigle boys" had tried to join the army and were rejected because they did not speak English.
I am reasonably certain, if you are speaking French in Madawaska, Frenchville, Van Buren, Fort Kent, Saint Agatha, and Saint Francis, you will get responses in French.
Yup. The last time we were in Fort Kent, we went into a place for coffee, and everyone there was speaking French.
Mostly they're up near Madawaska, and Caribou, and down a bit south to Presque Isle. There are also quite a few near the northwestern corner of Maine, near Quebec (Lac-Megantic, Thetford Mines, and Saint-Georges are Quebec towns near there... farming and rural industry hubs).
This article's map of New Brunswick shows the distribution of francophones in New Brunswick:
If you're around Edmundston, Grand Falls, you're clearly in the right place to meet lots of French-speakers. The vast majority are anglophone as you make your way further down the St. John River valley though. By the time you get to Perth-Andover, it's pretty anglophone.
Those are the old stomping grounds of my maternal grandparents. My grandmother was an anglophone of Irish descent, from the St. John River valley. My grandfather was a francophone "Brayon" from Madawaska, and his family did a fair bit of hopping around between that part of southern Quebec, into Maine, and over to northwestern N.B.
When I was growing up, northern Maine was like a world away from southern Maine. Southern Maine was strictly vacation land for urbanites from Boston and NYC.
That map may be a bit misleading. As percentages go, perhaps it represents those who have French as their first language? Maybe. But as far as representing the number of fluent French speakers, it does not match my experience.
We have traveled quite a bit through the green (0% - 5%) areas, and ALL the locals were fluent in French, not only in bigger places like Saint John, but even in the smaller towns along the way. It was not at all unusual to meet people in local shops and restaurants who used French primarily. Yes, every one of them also spoke perfect English, but it was not always their first go-to.
In my experience at least, most of New Brunswick is entirely bi-lingual. I have never met anyone there who wasn't fluent in both French and English.
When I was growing up, northern Maine was like a world away from southern Maine. Southern Maine was strictly vacation land for urbanites from Boston and NYC.
If by "Southern Maine" you mean any place south of Portland, I think that is still pretty accurate. Granted, I'm not a native, but we have been here almost 15 years now, and to me, all the towns south of Portland really feel more like "northern Massachusetts" than Maine.
That map may be a bit misleading. As percentages go, perhaps it represents those who have French as their first language? Maybe. But as far as representing the number of fluent French speakers, it does not match my experience.
We have traveled quite a bit through the green (0% - 5%) areas, and ALL the locals were fluent in French, not only in bigger places like Saint John, but even in the smaller towns along the way. It was not at all unusual to meet people in local shops and restaurants who used French primarily. Yes, every one of them also spoke perfect English, but it was not always their first go-to.
In my experience at least, most of New Brunswick is entirely bi-lingual. I have never met anyone there who wasn't fluent in both French and English.
I grew up in Saint John. There is one small francophone school, and one francophone church parish. I forget the actual number of Francophones in SJ but it’s less than 10% of the greater SJ area.k think it’s as low as 5%. Kennebecasis Valley, Charlotte County, most of the St. John River valley (until you reach the northernmost part), they’re all very much anglophone areas.
When I was a kid, there was still quite a bit of bigotry directed at Francophones in some areas. I heard it first hand. My father was raised speaking French at home (his parents moved down to SJ from Kent County in the 1920s). His mother never did learn to speak English, but he gradually forgot most of his French by the time he was retired. He married an anglophone, I grew up hearing only English at home (circa 1980s).
I knew francophone students at my anglophone school in SJ, before the francophone school was set up. But most people around central and southern NB would only know French if they attended French immersion schools. Times change, I’m sure more younger people nowadays are bilingual. Whether they use French regularly in those parts of the province that I’ve mentioned, I doubt it, that’s just my experience and my view.
Edit to add: Francophones and bilingual people are much more likely to be hired for tourism and hospitality jobs across NB so that they can serve customers in either language. As a tourist this might be how you got the impression that almost everyone in the province is fluently bilingual. If you look at census stats, the number of Francophones in the Saint John area is around 5% and it’s likely even lower than that in some other parts of the province.
I grew up in Saint John. There is one small francophone school, and one francophone church parish. I forget the actual number of Francophones in SJ but it’s less than 10% of the greater SJ area.k think it’s as low as 5%. Kennebecasis Valley, Charlotte County, most of the St. John River valley (until you reach the northernmost part), they’re all very much anglophone areas.
When I was a kid, there was still quite a bit of bigotry directed at Francophones in some areas. I heard it first hand. My father was raised speaking French at home (his parents moved down to SJ from Kent County in the 1920s). His mother never did learn to speak English, but he gradually forgot most of his French by the time he was retired. He married an anglophone, I grew up hearing only English at home (circa 1980s).
I knew francophone students at my anglophone school in SJ, before the francophone school was set up. But most people around central and southern NB would only know French if they attended French immersion schools. Times change, I’m sure more younger people nowadays are bilingual. Whether they use French regularly in those parts of the province that I’ve mentioned, I doubt it, that’s just my experience and my view.
Edit to add: Francophones and bilingual people are much more likely to be hired for tourism and hospitality jobs across NB so that they can serve customers in either language. As a tourist this might be how you got the impression that almost everyone in the province is fluently bilingual. If you look at census stats, the number of Francophones in the Saint John area is around 5% and it’s likely even lower than that in some other parts of the province.
Thanks for the info. Very enlightening!
Don't all students in New Brunswick public schools have to take X amount of years of French Language Instruction? Am I wrong?
Whenever we would stop at even little podunk gas stations, cafes, or the McDonald's, I always heard people speaking French first. If you addressed them in English, they always responded in perfect English. But amongst themselves, they were speaking French entirely.
Don't all students in New Brunswick public schools have to take X amount of years of French Language Instruction? Am I wrong?
Whenever we would stop at even little podunk gas stations, cafes, or the McDonald's, I always heard people speaking French first. If you addressed them in English, they always responded in perfect English. But amongst themselves, they were speaking French entirely.
Maybe I just happened to run into the 5%?
I had mandatory French until 10th grade, I believe, after that it was an elective. Although I continued after that (and still work on it, in eastern Ontario)... I am not kidding about the remnants of discrimination between French and English though.,.. when I was a kid, the province was still fairly divided among language, class, and even religious denomination lines, but this has improved over the years, I know.
I think, somehow, you did manage to mainly run into the 5% in southern NB who speak French, though! I wonder which "Podunk" hamlets or villages or towns you visited, and which places you visited there. Staff at restaurants, hotels, B&Bs, museums, tourist attractions, they'd be more likely to be bilingual.
It's pretty unusual to run across fluent French-speakers in southern and central New Brunswick. I guess we could get into a discussion of what is considered "fluent" (I could tell you exactly how I rate on reading, writing, and speaking on standardized tests in Canada, for my second language proficiency.). I will give you the benefit of the doubt, though, because if you hear a conversation between two casual speakers between themselves and it sounded like French, it likely was French.
Did you hear any Chiac in the Moncton area? Just curious. It is non-existent in southern NB.
Edit: to bring things back to Maine... Chiac is understood in the pockets of francophone communities that are in Nova Scotia and PEI; does this connection exist in Maine, and other parts of northern New England that have francophone communities? Or is the connection stronger to Quebec French?
Last edited by OTownDays; 08-26-2022 at 04:56 PM..
I think, somehow, you did manage to mainly run into the 5% in southern NB who speak French, though! I wonder which "Podunk" hamlets or villages or towns you visited, and which places you visited there. Staff at restaurants, hotels, B&Bs, museums, tourist attractions, they'd be more likely to be bilingual.
We were travelling between Maine and Nova Scotia, and our primary routes were either the TCH 2 or Highway 1. But we would often stray off the highway for 40 or 50 miles to look around in the smaller communities. Most of the French speakers we ran into were definitely more toward western New Brunswick, closer to the Maine border.
No one we ran into ever seemed to have an attitude about it. I only noticed when the person standing in line in front of me at the convenience store or cafe spoke in French, and the person behind the counter responded in kind. When I stepped up and spoke English, I got a perfect English response. And any time we'd stop at the McDonald's in Fredericton, at least 1/3 of the patrons in the restaurant were speaking French amongst themselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OTownDays
It's pretty unusual to run across fluent French-speakers in southern and central New Brunswick. I guess we could get into a discussion of what is considered "fluent" (I could tell you exactly how I rate on reading, writing, and speaking on standardized tests in Canada, for my second language proficiency.). I will give you the benefit of the doubt, though, because if you hear a conversation between two casual speakers between themselves and it sounded like French, it likely was French.
Did you hear any Chiac in the Moncton area? Just curious. It is non-existent in southern NB.
I don't know about Chiac. I am probably not fluent enough to recognize the difference between it and Canadian French.
But there is DEFINITELY a difference between the French I learned in school (Standard French) and the French spoken in Canada. My stepmother grew up in France and remains fluent in French, and she can barely understand French Canadians. The grammar is very similar, but A LOT of the vocabulary, idioms, etc. are entirely different.
Which is to be expected. The French usually taught in American schools is "Standard" French, descended from the aristocratic dialect in Europe, whereas the French spoken in Canada is descended from the dialects of peasants and settlers. Even I (who am by NO MEANS fluent!) can hear the difference. "Standard" French sounds a little snooty and stuck up to me, whereas Canadian French is much more "working class." All in all, I much prefer Canadian French.
That map may be a bit misleading. As percentages go, perhaps it represents those who have French as their first language? Maybe. But as far as representing the number of fluent French speakers, it does not match my experience.
We have traveled quite a bit through the green (0% - 5%) areas, and ALL the locals were fluent in French, not only in bigger places like Saint John, but even in the smaller towns along the way. It was not at all unusual to meet people in local shops and restaurants who used French primarily. Yes, every one of them also spoke perfect English, but it was not always their first go-to.
In my experience at least, most of New Brunswick is entirely bi-lingual. I have never met anyone there who wasn't fluent in both French and English.
I've been reading the posts on here.
Not sure what happened on your trip but what you recollect most definitely isn't an accurate linguistic picture of New Brunswick.
That map that accompanies the CBC news report is very accurate and basically shows people who are native speakers of French.
Yes, some people who aren't native speakers of French in New Brunswick (ie anglophones) can speak some French but it's far from being most of them. Most anglophone New Brunswickers only speak English.
And the central, southern and southwestern parts of the province are populated very predominantly by native speakers of English who only speak that language. Regardless of the fact that they teach them French as a second language in school. Only a small number of anglophone kids end up really fluent in French after their schooling.
The areas I am talking about include everywhere from Woodstock down to Fredericton, Saint John, Sussex, Saint Andrews, etc.
Some other parts of New Brunswick are more of a mix of anglophones and francophones like the Moncton area in the SE or the Bathurst and Campbellton areas in the north.
The areas around Edmundston (NW) and Caraquet-Tracadie-Shippigan (NE) are very predominantly francophone however.
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