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"Diversity" in Madison means one of everything. In a crowd of 100 people, you'll get one Latino, one African American, one Muslim, one conservative White guy, one Asian and 95 left-leaning middle-class Whites constantly pointing out the 5% in the their midst who are not as "evidence" of their town's celebrated "diversity."
When I lived out there after college I befriended quite a few of those five percent. By and large, they weren't nearly as head over heels in love with Madison as the vast, overwhelming White middle class majority. I've had African Americans tell me Madison is a bull**** town if you're Black. All the talk of "openness" and "inclusiveness," but at the end of the day there's really nothing there for you.
Living where I live, and doing what I do, I know a lot of college educated Blacks, and for the most part none of them ever had the desire to attend UW Madison. One guy told me he visited the campus while in high school and sensed Madison was a racist place. Another colleague has a niece currently attending UW Madison who is having a hard time being the "only one," and looked at like she just landed from another planet.
Not that Milwaukee is a paradise for minorities. But read this forum and talk to average Milwaukeeans and you'll see that you'll see that most of us, of any background, realize that there is a problem here. Madisonians think they've solved the problem. That's a load of crap. Madison's standing at home plate, thinking it just hit a home run when in fact it hasn't even run the bases.
I've got plenty more baseball analogies, and I'll be happy to include them in further debates.
Last edited by Milwaukee Ronnie; 10-07-2007 at 08:33 AM..
About Omaha. My wife and I spent a day there just this past summer, going to the zoo and exploring the downtown and riverfront areas of the city.
Omaha is a nice city. It's not nearly as homogoneous as some people would think. It has a long and storied Black musical tradition that manifests itself today a lively music scene that rivals cities many times its size. It's main downtown area is pretty sterile and dead, but there is a warehouse district just south of downtown full of shops, restaurants, loft condos .... walking around this area, called "Old Market," feels like you are in a much larger city. It's a happening area that reminded me quite a bit of Minneapolis's warehouse district or Milwaukee's Third Ward.
The Riverfront in Omaha is a fully redeveloped urban park with pavilions, walking paths, lots of trees, and new condo development nearby. It's an impressive layout and when I was there, an outdoor Jazz festival was being held. It was well attended and appeared to be a top quality event.
Omaha has a new sports arena that has begun to attract major entertainment acts to the city. It has a zoo that is hands down the best I've ever seen. Truly an attraction of national caliber.
We spent some time in Lincoln and were very impressed with this lovely little University town.
The main drawback I could see about Omaha is that it's relatively isolated. It's a long, long drive to any major city. Denver and Chicago are about 8 hours away.
Please note that when I used the word "diversity", that it was solely in reference to this thread's political conversation. The ethnic issue is an entirely different one. I work with the Latino community and Quijote is right, there is exponential growth of incoming Latinos, and they will soon be the largest minority group here. And while minority groups are technically over 15% of Madison's population, you'd never know it. There is both subtle and overt segregation, and it's easy to name the streets that act like borders between the whites and the rest. But unlike the apparent Milwaukeean opinion of us Madisonians, everyone I know here is acutely aware of this problem. It comes up a lot in the news as the University is struggling and failing to maintain more politically correct enrollment statistics.
From what I can tell, when Milwaukeeans think of the minority group situation in Madison, the thought centers on the university population--specifically the Asian presence. It seems that the black and Hispanic populations in Madison don't have much visibility, not just because the proportion of these groups in town is rather low compared to Milwaukee averages, but also because the "go-to" hot-spot places in Madison (State Street area, Capitol area, Willy Street, west side) are predominantly white and Asian. The Madison zip code with the highest index of blacks (53713--20% black) is not much of a "destination," even for many UW-Madison students. (The lake and arboretum draw people from the whiter parts of town, but mostly on a "come-enjoy-and-leave" basis without much mingling with nearby residents.) For outsiders, and also for many people living in Madison, a relatively small swath of city territory has come to identify the city at large. Perhaps as the city population grows, these fringe areas will invite more development (gentrification?) and will help publicize Madison more realistically.
I never said my opinions of Madison are "Milwaukee" opinions or reflecting of most Milwaukeeans opinions. Honestly, most of us don't really have an opinion of Madison, because most of us really don't know much about it outside of its status as the state capital and site of the state's flagship university. Your typical Milwaukeean can tell all about their favorite places in Chicago and the neighborhoods they usually hang out in down there. Ask your typical Milwaukeean what their favorite place to go in Madison is ... and you'll usually draw a blank.
My opinions of Madison are based on my own experiences living there for six years from 1997 to 2003. I have family there so I am in Madison or the surrounding area at least once every few months. So I know Wisconsin's capital city far better than most Milwaukeeans. And I do have a favorite place in Madison -- the Great Dane. I also have a bit more than your usual "outsider's" persepective of the town.
When I lived there I was involved in local government at both the city and county level, and had a job in an office on Capitol Square. So I got to know the "real" town, outside of the University. I found Madison to be incredibly provincial. I found it to be run by a political and social elite that, by and large, had their heads firmly implanted in their rectums. In meetings with local officials I was amazed at the lack of substance, wrapped in a psuedo-intellectual air of "we know what's best for you." When I saw Ralph Nader appear on Hardball With Chris Matthews at the Orpheum in 2000, I was embarrassed to be part of a crowd that booed the host for asking tough questions. A lot of the people doing the booing were part of that elite. The people that supposedly "knew better" than everyone else.
Last edited by Milwaukee Ronnie; 10-07-2007 at 12:02 PM..
The headline of today's Wisconsin State Journal reads:
"Crime changes aura of some neighborhoods"
and has a picture a black kid standing on a Madison street corner with a cop car driving by.
Thanks for pointing out this article, I just read it online. Definitely gives a look into Madison's less glamorous side.
Hey there, now.... I'm a left-leaning gay guy, and I chose to live in a condo in conservative Mequon.... No problems so far.
Hey quijote -
I seriously respect that quite a bit! But, judging from your posts here that are always well reasoned and informative, I can see clearly that you don't judge places or areas solely based on the political ideology of groups of citizens...again, I totally respect that!
I get frustrated with alot of Madison liberals (and that is generalizing...I surely realize not all Madison liberals are like this, but alot of them posting here seem to be in varying doses) somewhat out of the vane that Milwaukee Ronnie does. They seem to almost stumble over themselves telling folks how liberal or "progressive" they are, and often times people who talk about how much they love Madison talk about how they moved from somewhere else because it was "far too conservative" into their seeming "progressive" nirvana.
But a real staple of what these Madison progressives are always trying to sell is how much they embrace "diversity" and different thoughts, lifestyles, etc., when in reality, they are happiest in their self-created bubble of like-minded people.
Whereas I am proudly a conservative, however, when people post questions about "what is Milwaukee like" I don't blather on about the political slant and how great / terrible it is because of the politics. Sure, I will say that I think the taxes are too high, but I am not going to tell people not to live on the east side of Milwaukee (one of my favorite areas in the state of WI) just because it tends to be heavily liberal. I currently live in Greendale - I couldn't even tell you if we are more conservative or liberal there (guessing, I would say it is a bit of a mix). I like Greendale because of things like the many trees, access, pathways and streets, etc. - I don't judge it positively by how my block of neighbors vote.
Madison and Boulder, CO residents though seem to really be proud of themselves for their little bastions of like-mindedness they have created. And that just seems to be highly contrary to their talking points of acceptance of different lifestyles, cultures, etc.
OK, I don't want to get too far off topic, but quijote, you are the type of person whose well-reasoned thoughts my post assuredly was not directed to. I cannot say for certain, but I am guessing you moved to Mequon because you like certain things there, not because everyone else thought or acted exactly like you.
Yes, EnjoyEP, I was just pickin' at ya... Though I'm general fairly "liberal" (technically, leftist/libertarian), I also get frustrated by the self-congratulatory attitudes of social and communitarian bubbles. And this not only applies to left-of-center places such as Madison (where my views and attitudes would fit in rather well), but also to right-wing communities with self-congratulatory attitudes. (Think of small-town places that trumpet their flag-waving, church-going, "family values," etc.)
The underlying connection between these places is humility (or lack thereof) and the disparity between hype (what they say they do) and reality (what they in fact practice). Though I've never visited Omaha, I sense that the city is very genuine and humble, perhaps a bit like Milwaukee. Madison has many great things going for it, but the insularity of the leftist bubble, combined with this bubble's self-hype and internal contradictions, just doesn't reflect my overall personal values (though it reflects some of my social and political values). Mequon has a lot of right-wing self-promoting bubble people, for its part, but it isn't too obnoxious. The area where I live is more "live-and-let-live."
One of the reasons I've enjoyed living in Midwestern metros (Milwaukee, Buffalo, Columbus) is the general "live-and-let-live" attitude. (I've lived in suburban Birmingham, AL, and believe me--they want to change you if you're not like them.) Even here in Mequon, I can involve myself in leftist politics, eat organically, take the bus from the Park-n-Ride to work, read books, eat/cook ethnic food, and do other things that Madisonians do, and I don't feel the need to proclaim it from the rooftops. It's the lifestyle equivalent of "slow food," I guess.
Yes, EnjoyEP, I was just pickin' at ya... Though I'm general fairly "liberal" (technically, leftist/libertarian), I also get frustrated by the self-congratulatory attitudes of social and communitarian bubbles. And this not only applies to left-of-center places such as Madison (where my views and attitudes would fit in rather well), but also to right-wing communities with self-congratulatory attitudes. (Think of small-town places that trumpet their flag-waving, church-going, "family values," etc.)
The underlying connection between these places is humility (or lack thereof) and the disparity between hype (what they say they do) and reality (what they in fact practice). Though I've never visited Omaha, I sense that the city is very genuine and humble, perhaps a bit like Milwaukee. Madison has many great things going for it, but the insularity of the leftist bubble, combined with this bubble's self-hype and internal contradictions, just doesn't reflect my overall personal values (though it reflects some of my social and political values). Mequon has a lot of right-wing self-promoting bubble people, for its part, but it isn't too obnoxious. The area where I live is more "live-and-let-live."
One of the reasons I've enjoyed living in Midwestern metros (Milwaukee, Buffalo, Columbus) is the general "live-and-let-live" attitude. (I've lived in suburban Birmingham, AL, and believe me--they want to change you if you're not like them.) Even here in Mequon, I can involve myself in leftist politics, eat organically, take the bus from the Park-n-Ride to work, read books, eat/cook ethnic food, and do other things that Madisonians do, and I don't feel the need to proclaim it from the rooftops. It's the lifestyle equivalent of "slow food," I guess.
Great thoughts / post quijote...you hit what I have been trying to say on the head, in my own inarticulate way!
The only difference I am going to say though, and again I really appreciated your thoughts and post, but between the conservative towns (and the bubbles that you pointed out that do exist in conservative towns) and the liberal towns like Madison that have their bubbles, is that the general painted stereotype often painted is that conservatives are "closed minded" and "intolerant" and "not accepting", blah, blah, blah, the list goes on. So with that reasoning, sure, some of these small conservative towns are in their conservative bubble, but that is what people say they are going to be in! Yet, liberals or - as they like to often call themselves, "progressives" - boast often times of "being accepting of diversity" and being open to "tolerance" and the like...yet, their bubbles are no different in places like Madison and Boulder, and in fact, they are really going contrary to what they preach / verging on real hypocrisy.
Again, I am not trying to just bash Madison. Overall I like Madison, and despite my ol' conservatism, would live there because it is a nice enough small town (probably wouldn't live there because it is just too small for me).
Anyway, thanks for the thoughts quijote - as an aside to this aside, while you are a liberal / libertarian, I am actually a conservative / libertarian, so it is a good thing for people to not rule one another out based solely on their political slant - even Dems and Repubs might find that they agree on some philisophical issues!
The only difference I am going to say though, and again I really appreciated your thoughts and post, but between the conservative towns (and the bubbles that you pointed out that do exist in conservative towns) and the liberal towns like Madison that have their bubbles, is that the general painted stereotype often painted is that conservatives are "closed minded" and "intolerant" and "not accepting", blah, blah, blah, the list goes on. So with that reasoning, sure, some of these small conservative towns are in their conservative bubble, but that is what people say they are going to be in! Yet, liberals or - as they like to often call themselves, "progressives" - boast often times of "being accepting of diversity" and being open to "tolerance" and the like...yet, their bubbles are no different in places like Madison and Boulder, and in fact, they are really going contrary to what they preach / verging on real hypocrisy.
I pretty much agree with this, EnjoyEP. In the case of certain small towns and other self-congratulatory right-wing bubbles, what bothers me is the hypocrisy that leaks out from the community's iron-clad rhetoric. When such people say "We're proud to be Americans and we love the U.S.," what they're often saying is: "We're proud to be a certain kind of American, and we love our interpretation of what the U.S. ideally ought to be." In other words, their bias masquerades as some kind of blanket acceptance. If they think that liberals don't love the U.S., too, they're entirely wrong. We just love the U.S. differently.
Related to this hypocrisy is the attitude, "We believe in family values, and we are proud of our family-oriented ways." True, unless the son is gay, or unless the daughter wants to date someone of a different race. What these people are really saying is: "We have a fairly specific definition of what a family is and ought to be, and we reject certain people and things within and outside of our families." Many liberals also like families, but have different levels of tolerance of how families are created, nurtured, and perpetuated.
And then there are the moments in such communities when the official rhetoric and sentiment is undermined by actions: even these right-wing bubbles see divorce, suicide, betrayal, child neglect, homosexuality, and other things that don't fit into the Mayberry mold. It's hard to take such people seriously when they don't always meet words with actions. Like many of the Madison-type liberals, these folks are trying desperately hard to build and maintain a rigid identity, yet ignore or belittle many of the realities of life in the process.
This is why I prefer places such as Milwaukee--there are still bubbles in place, but they are usually "porous bubbles"; the city is always right there to slap you in the face and pull you out of yourself. I like being challenged like that.
"Diversity" in Madison means one of everything. In a crowd of 100 people, you'll get one Latino, one African American, one Muslim, one conservative White guy, one Asian and 95 left-leaning middle-class Whites constantly pointing out the 5% in the their midst who are not as "evidence" of their town's celebrated "diversity."
When I lived out there after college I befriended quite a few of those five percent. By and large, they weren't nearly as head over heels in love with Madison as the vast, overwhelming White middle class majority. I've had African Americans tell me Madison is a bull**** town if you're Black. All the talk of "openness" and "inclusiveness," but at the end of the day there's really nothing there for you.
Living where I live, and doing what I do, I know a lot of college educated Blacks, and for the most part none of them ever had the desire to attend UW Madison. One guy told me he visited the campus while in high school and sensed Madison was a racist place. Another colleague has a niece currently attending UW Madison who is having a hard time being the "only one," and looked at like she just landed from another planet.
Not that Milwaukee is a paradise for minorities. But read this forum and talk to average Milwaukeeans and you'll see that you'll see that most of us, of any background, realize that there is a problem here. Madisonians think they've solved the problem. That's a load of crap. Madison's standing at home plate, thinking it just hit a home run when in fact it hasn't even run the bases.
I've got plenty more baseball analogies, and I'll be happy to include them in further debates.
This is dead-on. I love Madison enough that I still consider moving back from time to time and I visit relatively frequently. (Oddly enough, my favorite place while in town is also the Great Dane, and is often the main reason for my visit.) But I can't stand the way it wears its "diversity" like a medal of honor, especially when that "diversity" is largely a contrivance. Its diversity is a proclamation of an ideal more than a reality, as if the city can will diversity into existence. Any Madisonian who believes their city is actually diverse has never spent an hour in Chicago, New York, Miami, Los Angeles, Boston, Philadelphia, or even Milwaukee; or if they have, they've spent that hour in the white touristy parts. It takes a lot more than a few ethnic restaurants, a lesbian-themed bookstore, a dusting of actual ethnic minorities and a lot of self-proclamation to achieve true, organic diversity. It's silly and almost embarrassing to watch a city trip over itself trying to bring about what is generally a spontaneous process.
As for the race issue, what Milwaukee Ronnie describes is a phenomenon in a lot of largely white cities that believe there are no race issues in their cities because they've never had to earnestly deal with race issues. The main reason there are no serious issues with race relations in Madison is because the minority population is so small as to be practically invisible. Out of sight, out of mind. The few you see don't complain much, so things must be OK by them, right?
Wrong. They do complain. You just can't hear them because they collectively form a very small voice, and they're shouting into the wind. Madison doesn't have a Jesse Jackson or an Al Sharpton to wave their hands and say, "hey folks, we're over here, and we've got some issues we would like addressed." It doesn't have minorities holding half the seats in city council with the collective power to say, "you have to work with us if you want your favorite ordinance proposal passed."
I used to think race relations in Chicago were the worst of any place I've ever lived. It turns out I was wrong. Race relations are simply the loudest of any place I've ever lived. And that's because this city is pretty evenly split between whites, blacks and Hispanics. We can't ignore each other. We have to hear each other out or this city will grind to a halt. That means we have political battles that are often contentious, vitriolic and sometimes just plain toxic. But in the end, everybody gets heard, and that goes a long way toward maintaining an uneasy truce (but a truce nonetheless) between shouting matches.
By contrast, nobody has to hear out the rather small minority population in Madison because the city can literally function efficiently without giving one minute's worth of consideration to the minority population's concerns. I don't mean to say that Madison deliberately ignores minority issues out of some sort of racial animus; in fact, it can't spend an inordinate amount of time dealing with minority issues and still function efficiently. That's just the way the demographics of the city shake out right now, and it also means the city's minority population simply doesn't have any political clout to throw around. Too many people mistakenly take this lack of contentious, vitriolic, and toxic battles to mean that everyone's getting along A-OK. Said people, as Milwaukee Ronnie notes, are engaged in a cranial-rectal interface, at least on this issue anyway.
Last edited by Drover; 10-11-2007 at 10:14 PM..
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I cannot say for certain, but I am guessing you moved to Mequon because you like certain things there, not because everyone else thought or acted exactly like you.
