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Actually we sold our house of 20 years last year and moved to NC. Thinking we were getting away for snow/cold. Although it rarely snows here where we are, it does still get cold.
Yes the cold is about 10 degrees warmer than further north where we moved from, but it is cold.
I believe our salaries would be similar, but I believe the COL will definitely be higher in Jacksonville. Thus my concern for if we can get what we are looking for.
So this is a "last house" for us and also believe you get what you pay for and realize cost up front may more than pay for themselves in the future. As well as some items are more properly done when the walls are open instead of and after thought.
We are warmer than North Carolina. But sometimes not by much. The most important difference is we almost never get snow - not even a flake. Last time I recall was in 1989:
More important - we don't get ice storms. Which my late inlaws - who lived in central North Carolina - suffered through on a regular basis. We do get some light frosts some winter mornings - and an occasional winter morning hard freeze. Which can make things difficult in terms of planning a garden. But you won't have ice covered trees falling down and taking power lines with them.
I obviously don't know about all builders/houses in North Carolina. But the middle of the road one my late inlaws bought (new) was really a POS. It was basically falling apart when it was sold (it was 20 years old at the time). And North Carolina has had its share of building problems/headaches over the years. With things like EIFS. Of course - we've had issues in Florida too. With things like Chinese dry wall. Almost seems like when one problem disappears - another takes its place. Robyn
Thanks this helps a lot and not to technical. I'm somewhat familiar with residential construction further north anyway.
I have been thru a David Weekley green model in Charleston as couple years ago. I did like a lot of what I saw. But realize a lot is dependent on project managers and subs in any given area.
You mentioned stucco, what about brick. Such as red brick? Is this common in NE FL.
Thanks
Brick is not nearly as common here, but it does exist. I am working with Development firm at the moment on an extremely large brick home being built in Glen Kernan Golf & Country Club, and I recommended they use the Dow Weathermate Plus Weatherization System because it has the lowest perm rating (6.7) of all the systems on the market currently. Brick has the highest rate of moisture vapor transmission of all the exterior finishes due to its porosity, and with the required 1" of air space behind the brick, the best route for this type of cladding is the lowest perm rating possible to prevent as much moisture vapor as possible from entering the wall cavity. We even worked with the brick mason to ensure the he incorporated his angle iron above all the windows/doors into the Weatherization System, which I have never seen a builder do. These guys are Avreal Development are extremely impressive with how much care they put in to all the details of construction. Probably the best I've ever run across, but I'm guessing the most expensive as well.
And Robyn55 - In response to your comments about concrete block construction, the reason I did not address it in my first post is due to its lack of popularity in NE Florida. I will say however, I have been involved in no less than 3 major construction defect lawsuits and every single one of those projects, totally over 60 buildings, were concrete block construction. Block has it's own set of challenges, cost being a big one, but with CBS projects, moisture intrusion can and does occur. When it does, the cost of repairing/replacing the wall components of block construction far exceed those of wood framed construction. It sounds like you had an excellent builder though, so for that you can be thankful!
Construction techniques have advanced substantially over the past 20 years, and hurricane codes have been implemented in such a degree that ALL new wood framed homes use tie-down system that basically tie the roofing system into the slabs with threaded rods that go all the way through the walls. And in regards to your stucco not having any micro fractures, the word "micro" means microscopic, as in you need a microscope to see them, so I would have to question if you checked your walls with a microscope? The point you are missing is in any type of cladding, moisture vapor is what passes through to the wall system, not necessarily just bulk water from wind driven rain.
That being said, I don't want to get into a debate over whether block or wood framed is the best construction. Wood framed has been and will continue to be the most popular construction method for many years to come, so my hope is to help homebuyers understand the intricacies involved in their wall systems so they don't end up with a situation you like had with Arvida Homes.
Interesting that you mention Arvida though....as I was part of a team hired to investigate and implement a Weatherization program for them back in 2002-2003. At the time, they were using NO system at all, only felt paper under their stucco, which as you mentioned, led to a mass failure of their wall systems and a class action lawsuit. The crazy part is, the local people with Arvida were all on board and ready to go with a new system, and the accountants in corporate said it was too costly and pulled the plug on it the day we were slated to start their first house. By 2004 however, the Weatherization Systems became a code requirement and they were forced to start using it anyways. That's also why I caution homebuyers about certain builders as well. Some will use something only because it's code, but because they consider it a nuisance, they will end up using the cheapest possible labor and/or materials for that part of the process, and as in Arvida's case, cause the homeowners endless costly litigation and years of headaches.
We are warmer than North Carolina. But sometimes not by much. The most important difference is we almost never get snow - not even a flake. Last time I recall was in 1989:
More important - we don't get ice storms. Which my late inlaws - who lived in central North Carolina - suffered through on a regular basis. We do get some light frosts some winter mornings - and an occasional winter morning hard freeze. Which can make things difficult in terms of planning a garden. But you won't have ice covered trees falling down and taking power lines with them.
I obviously don't know about all builders/houses in North Carolina. But the middle of the road one my late inlaws bought (new) was really a POS. It was basically falling apart when it was sold (it was 20 years old at the time). And North Carolina has had its share of building problems/headaches over the years. With things like EIFS. Of course - we've had issues in Florida too. With things like Chinese dry wall. Almost seems like when one problem disappears - another takes its place. Robyn
Correction Robyn....we had snow flurries this year in Neptune Beach and other parts of town. Please update your once a decade Jacksonville snow log to reflect this new information.
And yes.....builders are mostly reactive, not proactive, so once one problem is solved, another one arises. The next problem, in my opinion, is going to be the Zip Wall, and I feel like it's going to be really, really bad, much larger than the Chinese drywall issue, because if and when those systems start failing, the cost to fix both the inside AND the outside of the wall (Stucco/OSB/Insulation/Sheetrock/Etc.) would be enormous compared to just replacing drywall on the inside.
...And Robyn55 - In response to your comments about concrete block construction, the reason I did not address it in my first post is due to its lack of popularity in NE Florida. I will say however, I have been involved in no less than 3 major construction defect lawsuits and every single one of those projects, totally over 60 buildings, were concrete block construction. Block has it's own set of challenges, cost being a big one, but with CBS projects, moisture intrusion can and does occur. When it does, the cost of repairing/replacing the wall components of block construction far exceed those of wood framed construction. It sounds like you had an excellent builder though, so for that you can be thankful!
Construction techniques have advanced substantially over the past 20 years, and hurricane codes have been implemented in such a degree that ALL new wood framed homes use tie-down system that basically tie the roofing system into the slabs with threaded rods that go all the way through the walls. And in regards to your stucco not having any micro fractures, the word "micro" means microscopic, as in you need a microscope to see them, so I would have to question if you checked your walls with a microscope? The point you are missing is in any type of cladding, moisture vapor is what passes through to the wall system, not necessarily just bulk water from wind driven rain.
That being said, I don't want to get into a debate over whether block or wood framed is the best construction. Wood framed has been and will continue to be the most popular construction method for many years to come, so my hope is to help homebuyers understand the intricacies involved in their wall systems so they don't end up with a situation you like had with Arvida Homes.
Interesting that you mention Arvida though....as I was part of a team hired to investigate and implement a Weatherization program for them back in 2002-2003. At the time, they were using NO system at all, only felt paper under their stucco, which as you mentioned, led to a mass failure of their wall systems and a class action lawsuit. The crazy part is, the local people with Arvida were all on board and ready to go with a new system, and the accountants in corporate said it was too costly and pulled the plug on it the day we were slated to start their first house. By 2004 however, the Weatherization Systems became a code requirement and they were forced to start using it anyways. That's also why I caution homebuyers about certain builders as well. Some will use something only because it's code, but because they consider it a nuisance, they will end up using the cheapest possible labor and/or materials for that part of the process, and as in Arvida's case, cause the homeowners endless costly litigation and years of headaches.
SS
Our builder came here from Tampa - and knew what he was doing. Before we signed a contract - we had my retired builder (fussy) father walk through a couple of houses he was building. My father gave the builder his blessing - and that was that .
Note that there was only 1 other builder doing block when we moved here best I can recall - Frank Gamel. Don't know anything about the outfit. Other builders we interviewed - who already owned some lots we were interested in - didn't have a clue about block construction. At least one told us he would subcontract building the basic shell of the house to the builder we eventually hired directly if we wanted block. Which didn't seem like such a great idea to me.
One thing I especially liked about our builder is he didn't go through this nonsense of charging percentage markups on finish stuff. Like bath and lighting fixtures and appliances and floor covering. He just wanted to make X profit on the house - and his profit was actually a stated figure in the contract we signed. Note that in return for this deal - it was our obligation to buy the things we wanted - pay for them - and see that they were delivered to the job site at the right times. Which we did (I had lived in Florida for 20+ years - had a lot of good contacts from working on other jobs - our condos and offices - and was retired and had the time to make sure everything was in order). I even ordered custom baseboards an architect had spec'd for us for another place from an outfit in central Florida I had used before. I don't need my hand held to buy a toilet or a lighting fixture and honestly had a great deal of fun with the project. But I realize a lot of people would be overwhelmed trying to do what I did - and some need a lot of hand holding.
I am not sure why block isn't popular here. And why the NE Florida home builders were never much interested in it. Like you say - it might have something to do with cost. But - like I've mentioned - block doesn't cost a lot more than stick. OTOH - this area has historically been a "low priced spread" part of the state - so I guess price considerations matter more here than in south Florida. I've actually seen some pretty weird "chintzy" construction here over the years. Like an oceanfront mansion where the wall facing the ocean was block - but the other 3 walls were stick .
OTOH - when we were building - it seemed to be an accepted practice here to pay full list price for things like bathroom fixtures at a place like Ferguson. It was like "people with money don't ask for discounts" - even in an industry where 30-35% discounts from list prices were the norm just about everywhere else. Our builder liked Ferguson (seems to be a decent outfit) - but I told Ferguson if we didn't get the normal 30-35% discount - we'd buy elsewhere. We got the discount. Ferguson did ok by us (although most of our original appliances have since been replaced).
But some local outfits here didn't have a clue. We bought a lot of floor coverings from Dixie Contract Carpet ourselves (great outfit that I recommend highly - it recently redid a lot of floor coverings for us too). But we ordered our bathroom tiles from a place our builder recommended (can't remember the name). Like 6 months in advance. Our builder lined up a great tile guy who was much in demand (his tile work was amazingly perfect) - and the day came to pick up the tile - start the job. And - guess what - the tile wasn't there. The idiots at this tile place hadn't noted that the tiles we picked were from Europe - and had to be ordered 8 weeks in advance. And they didn't order them. We weren't going to delay the job for 2 months for bathroom tile. So we called up Dixie Contract - found something we liked that it had in stock - and the tile guy started work. Only a day late.
Overall - we didn't save money by doing what we did. We just wound up with higher grade finish work for what we were prepared to pay for the house. To this day - when I walk into a million dollar + house - and see 39 cent electrical plates with exposed screws - I figure the original owner was robbed (perhaps this isn't common today - but it was certainly common 15-20 years ago).
When it comes to Arvida - no one with half a brain who lived in Miami in 1992 would buy from Arvida - not after Country Walk:
Especially not in 1995. Don't know what the story is today. But I was ok renting a new Arvida house for a year or so back then. I didn't "own" the problems the house had.
Finally - do you recommend that I inspect the stucco with a magnifying glass ? Robyn
One issue that hasn't been mentioned is financing/paying for a custom house.
My husband and I paid cash (out of the proceeds of our sale in Miami). We were "the bank". We had an elaborate draw schedule - about 12 draws after the initial deposit at specified stages of completion IIRC. Where the builder never got ahead of us. Also - as Florida lawyers - we were familiar with things like the mechanics' lien laws - and how to comply with them. And handled those things ourselves.
I don't know how you deal with money if you need a mortgage for a custom house. Or how draws at various stages are handled. Reckon someone who isn't a lawyer would - at a minimum - need a lawyer to draw up/review a contract - deal with mechanics' liens laws - and similar. Robyn
Correction Robyn....we had snow flurries this year in Neptune Beach and other parts of town. Please update your once a decade Jacksonville snow log to reflect this new information.
And yes.....builders are mostly reactive, not proactive, so once one problem is solved, another one arises. The next problem, in my opinion, is going to be the Zip Wall, and I feel like it's going to be really, really bad, much larger than the Chinese drywall issue, because if and when those systems start failing, the cost to fix both the inside AND the outside of the wall (Stucco/OSB/Insulation/Sheetrock/Etc.) would be enormous compared to just replacing drywall on the inside.
SS
I heard those reports about a few snow flakes - but question them. And a few snow flakes isn't exactly a snow storm. What happened in 1989 can't be attributed to some people who perhaps saw things that weren't there after a few drinks . And it was a real mess - not a 10 minute thing - too. So I'll stick with 1989 .
BTW - I remember 1989 very well. We lived in Miami then and were on our way to NC to visit family over Christmas. We got across the Fuller Warren bridge just before it closed. And - when we arrived in NC - wish we hadn't. What a mess they had there in NC. Pipes bursting everywhere and the heat pumps couldn't keep up with the record cold temperatures. So we were freezing.
I think it's very hard for people - especially those who aren't lawyers or in the construction business - to keep up with new materials/construction methods and their possible issues/defects. BTW - what was the problem with the CBS houses you mentioned - the defects? I do know that concrete/CBS is permeable. We did have a little water damage when the winds from Hurricane Andrew pushed water through the concrete walls of our high rise condo in Miami. But that was kind of an extreme case. Robyn
I heard those reports about a few snow flakes - but question them. And a few snow flakes isn't exactly a snow storm. What happened in 1989 can't be attributed to some people who perhaps saw things that weren't there after a few drinks . And it was a real mess - not a 10 minute thing - too. So I'll stick with 1989 .
BTW - I remember 1989 very well. We lived in Miami then and were on our way to NC to visit family over Christmas. We got across the Fuller Warren bridge just before it closed. And - when we arrived in NC - wish we hadn't. What a mess they had there in NC. Pipes bursting everywhere and the heat pumps couldn't keep up with the record cold temperatures. So we were freezing.
I think it's very hard for people - especially those who aren't lawyers or in the construction business - to keep up with new materials/construction methods and their possible issues/defects. BTW - what was the problem with the CBS houses you mentioned - the defects? I do know that concrete/CBS is permeable. We did have a little water damage when the winds from Hurricane Andrew pushed water through the concrete walls of our high rise condo in Miami. But that was kind of an extreme case. Robyn
Faulty windows, bad stucco installation, improper materials or missing stucco weep screeds....most times though it's simply a lack of proper homeowner maintenance, but the homeowner or condo association sues the builders to get what they can out of all the subcontractors insurance companies so they can renovate the place before the 10 yr. statue of limitation is up on multi family projects. It's a dirty business, big money, and goes on all day every day. But don't get me started on that path......
Let me give you a little advice on both builders as well as construction methods for our hot, humid climate here in NE Florida.
First the builders:
1. David Weekley Homes - They have many communities going on, but what many don't know is that they will build on your own lot as well, and the big bonus is that they will build any model from anywhere in the country that they offer for you. The drawback to that is that it's so many plans to choose from, it's almost overwhelming. But as far as quality, consider them the cream of the crop for production builders, to where I would consider them a semi-custom builder disguised as a production builder. Visit one of their green rooms in their model homes and you will understand what I mean.
2. Avreal Development Company - A top of the line custom builder. Will only use the best materials and will only do things 100% correctly. Might cost you more upfront, but will save you in quality later down the road.
3. Dean Russell Construction - Based out of Jacksonville Beach, they are another very good quality builder that I would recommend.
4. JL Linder Group - Again, another outstanding builder based out of Orange Park, but will build anywhere you need them in Duval and St. Johns Counties.
5. Plantation Housing Corp. - An excellent builder, however, they only build in Nassau County, so this may rule them out of consideration for you.
Now let me move on to some specific construction methods.....
1. Florida as I mentioned is a hot, humid climate. An air conditioned house acts like a vacuum for the hot moist air in our area. Your walls constantly collect moisture vapor inside them and that as that vapor builds, it turns back into bulk water once it hits a cold surface and condenses. (Think of how when you take a hot shower, the moisture collects on the mirror and runs down it) It's imperative that you pick the right materials for your wall system in Florida, which I will elaborate on further.
2. Stucco vs. Siding - Stucco cracks, end of story. Due to settling of the home, as well as the natural expansion and contraction of the building materials, it's going to be full of microscopic cracks in a very short time. That doesn't necessarily mean you will have problems with it if your wall system works properly, but just bear in mind, a lap siding home with Nichiha, Hardie, or similar fiber cement materials naturally drains the water away from the home all the way down the surface. If given the choice, I would opt for siding over stucco every single time.
3. Housewrap vs. Zip Wall - In our area, a newer product called Zip Wall, which is a green OSB panel, is being used in lieu of traditional Weatherization Systems that use housewrap. Stay away from any builder who uses the Zip Wall system and refuses to install a traditional housewrap system over it. The
Zip Wall system relies solely on the performance of the taping of the seams, and does not create a complete drainage plane from the top of the wall to the bottom. The horizontal seams get taped, and when they do that, the slow the drainage of water going down the wall. A housewrap has no such problem. Also, thermal degradation inside a wall system can cause these tapes to fail over time, so in the case of Zip Wall, every seam in the OSB is vulnerable to moisture intrusion.
4. Stucco (PT II) - In the event that you do decide to go with a stucco house, it is VERY important that your builder uses the right housewrap. Stucco contains surfactants, which give stucco it's "workability" when it's being applied. The problem is that these surfactants will reduce the surface tension on most housewraps and allow them to get wet. There are only 2 products on the market currently that have protection against these surfactants. They are called Typar (not the white Tyvek, but Typar which is gray), and the other is Dow Weathermate PLUS (not the Dow Weathermate Basic, it has to be the PLUS which is blue). These two products both add protection against the surfactants in stucco, and are the only two products you should use on a stucco home.
5. Real cedar shake - In the event you go with a real cedar shake home like many do at the beach, follow the same principles as stucco in item 4 above. Cedar (and any real wood) contains tannins which can also break down housewrap, but the Dow Weathermate Plus and Typar both contain protection against this.
6. Permeability - No matter what type of house you build, you should also take into consideration the "Perm Rating" of the housewrap you choose. In this hot, humid climate, you want a low perm product, that ranges anywhere from 5-20 perms at most. Perm rating determines how much moisture vapor can actually pass through the product (they have to breathe both ways to allow moisture to escape during cooler months and such), but you don't want a super high perm rating that will allow a ton of moisture to pass through into the wall and collect there. Again, stick to under 20 perms in this category, and you'll be fine.
7. Location - Depending on where you build, different types of wall systems will perform better, so this is critical, but I reiterate that you should stay away from Zip Wall as your primary WRB (Weather Resistive Barrier) at all costs. According to my sources, DuPont is coming out with some very damaging third party testing showing massive failure in the Zip Wall tape if it is not applied 100% correctly, and I assure you, there is not one single building in NE Florida where it is applied 100% correctly.
8. Roofing - Always, always spend the extra $$'s to have a "Peel & Stick" roofing underlayment as opposed to the traditional felt paper most builders use. In the event of a hurricane or even a strong storm, if the shingles blow off, the felt paper will be soon to follow and cause tons of damage inside the home. With the peel & stick membrane, it will still be stuck to the OSB on the roof and give you a lot more protection from damage on the inside from water. Plus, most insurance companies will give you a discount on your homeowners insurance for using a peel & stick as well. A metal roof provides the best protection and gives the lowest insurance rates, but it is VERY expensive and most HOA's won't allow it unless it's part of a seaside type community. I believe they allow metal roofs in Pablo Creek Reserve, but that is a higher end gated community. You can upgrade to the peel & stick underlayment anywhere you build.
I apologize if any of this is too scientific or technical, but being involved in many construction defect lawsuits over the years, these are critical items that most homebuyers simply aren't aware of but should be. I'd be glad to answer any specific questions or give you further help if you want to send me a private message.
Faulty windows, bad stucco installation, improper materials or missing stucco weep screeds....most times though it's simply a lack of proper homeowner maintenance, but the homeowner or condo association sues the builders to get what they can out of all the subcontractors insurance companies so they can renovate the place before the 10 yr. statue of limitation is up on multi family projects. It's a dirty business, big money, and goes on all day every day. But don't get me started on that path......
SS
There is always a lawsuit against the developer in a condo . In a HOA with single family homes - no for the most part best I can tell.
Hurricane Andrew was a great source of (insurance) revenue for places that were behind on routine maintenance and had let buildings get somewhat run down. There was obviously a huge amount of real structural damage - which I'm not minimizing at all - but using insurance proceeds to replace things like 20 year carpet was a bonus. I wouldn't mind a minor hurricane in the next couple of years - so our insurance company would pay for a new roof . Robyn
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? Robyn
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