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There are many verses in the Quran that exhort the Muslims to do following 'Obey Allah and obey the messenger.'
Here is one. [nb: mine]
24:54. Say: Obey Allah and obey the messenger. But if ye [Muslims] turn away, then (it is) for him [Muhammad] (to do) only that wherewith he [Muhammad] hath been charged [to do], and for you [Muslim] (to do) only that wherewith ye [Muslim] have been charged [to do]. If ye [Muslim] obey him, ye will go aright. But the messenger [Muhammad] hath no other charge [duty] than to convey (the message), plainly.
Many Muslim scholars extend the above to support total validity of the Sunnah, i.e. if a Muslim must obey the messenger as Allah insists, then the Muslim must also obey all the sayings of Muhammad literally and unconditionally.
I do not support the views of the Koranists, i.e. only the Quran matters. I agree the Hadiths and Sira are relevant but they must comply with the primary source of Allah's words, i.e. the Quran-MGA-610.
Therefore when Allah command 'obey Allah and obey the messenger' he meant obey as far as the Quran is applicable.
There is no way Allah would agree that a Muslim obey whatever Muhammad said.
Note:
Say [O prophet]: It is not for me to change it [the Qur’an] of my own accord.
I only follow that which is inspired in me. If I disobey my Lord I fear retribution of an awful Day. (10:15).
Therefore we cannot interpret the general statement, i.e. Obey Allah and obey the messenger as simply obeying Muhammad unconditionally without any cross referencing the Quran.
Analogy:
If a company issue a policy statement that all employees must obey their departmental head, it imply an employee must obey the departmental head to the extend of whatever instructions are given by the respective departmental head that is in compliance with the overall company's policy and rules.
Thus if any employee is caught in a bribing crime, that employee cannot plea as a defense, he did it because his departmental head told him to do so and he was following the company policy instruction that 'all employees must obey their departmental head'.
It is the same in any organization. For another analogy, as in the army where the lower rank soldiers must obey the commands of their superiors. This does not mean a soldier can rape an innocent civilian women, kill babies, etc. if his lieutenant order him to do so because there is an explicit and implicit rule that a lower rank soldier must obey their commands of their superiors.
Similarly in the Quran,
When Allah stipulated 'Obey Allah and obey the messenger' it does not mean obeying Muhammad unconditionally.
Whatever a Muslim is to obey Muhammad, it must be in compliance with the Quran.
If a Muslim is commanded by Muhammad to cast terrors and kill non-Muslims for various reasons, that is permissible because it is in compliance with the verses of the Quran [Allah's words].
If Muhammad requested his followers to love their enemies as with Jesus, that is not permissible because there is no such verses in the Quran and the current Bible is a corrupted.
So, 'obey the messenger' [24:54] and elsewhere in the Quran cannot be totally unconditional but is subject to compliance with what is in the Quran.
Whether forum or no forum - use the advice, it's good for your health.
I don't see how a topic like this can be related to 'my health,' perhaps you are speaking for your own health.
This is a critical subject because if they obey the wrong things they may end up in hell instead of heaven.
In addition if they obey the wrong thing, they would promote Hell on Earth, but note in reality that is already happening.
Last edited by Continuum; 11-14-2015 at 06:50 PM..
Bismillaah ir Rahmaan ir Rahiim In The Name Of Allaah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. As salaamu alaykum The Peace Be Upon You.
I believe some matters are to be left to common sense. I want my adult sons to distribute some things that I have in storage because I want to get rid of them now, and not will them, in terms of transition, for instance. There is nothing that I can insure, as overall I doubt if there is more than $400.00 in goods there, and it is costing nearly $1800.00 a yr. to keep. It is economically unsound. Comments??
O you who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger (Muhammad) and render not vain your deeds." (Quran: 47/33)
Suggest you refresh the arguments in this thread on what "obey" Muhammad meant.
Muhammad is merely a Warner in respect of the message of the Quran.
Obey Muhammad meant obey to the extent and scope within the authority of the Quran as delivered by Allah to Muhammad.
Analogy:
In a company meeting when employees are instructed by the President of a Company to obey the General Manager [GM], it only meant obeying the GM within the scope of the Constitution of the Company.
For example, a secretary cannot obey the GM when he demand her for sex or perform a blow-job.
Agree.
Similarly "Obey Muhammad" in the context of the Quran do not mean obeying every whims and fancies of what Muhammad did and said in his whole life in the 23 years [610-632AD].
As far as Muslims are concerned, obeying Muhammad meant what is to be obeyed must be confined and restricted to what Allah had intended, i.e. whatever is in the Quran and nothing else.
Allah had stated what is in the Quran is complete, perfect and final, so there is no addition secret communication that Allah gave to Muhammad that is not in the Quran.
Suggest you refresh the arguments in this thread on what "obey" Muhammad meant.
Muhammad is merely a Warner in respect of the message of the Quran.
Obey Muhammad meant obey to the extent and scope within the authority of the Quran as delivered by Allah to Muhammad.
Analogy:
In a company meeting when employees are instructed by the President of a Company to obey the General Manager [GM], it only meant obeying the GM within the scope of the Constitution of the Company.
For example, a secretary cannot obey the GM when he demand her for sex or perform a blow-job.
Agree.
Similarly "Obey Muhammad" in the context of the Quran do not mean obeying every whims and fancies of what Muhammad did and said in his whole life in the 23 years [610-632AD].
As far as Muslims are concerned, obeying Muhammad meant what is to be obeyed must be confined and restricted to what Allah had intended, i.e. whatever is in the Quran and nothing else.
Allah had stated what is in the Quran is complete, perfect and final, so there is no addition secret communication that Allah gave to Muhammad that is not in the Quran.
Do you dispute this point?
The Qur'an is complete. However it is an explanation of why we should perform Islam and why we should worship Allaah(swt) alone. It is not a textbook on how to worship or how to perform Islam. For that we have to look at how Muhammad(saws) performed Islam.
Not all Ahadith relate any commands. Actually very few are and the ones that are considered commands do not contradict the Qur'an.As far as I know, no one has compiled any listing of "Commands" based upon the Ahadith.
But by studying the ahadith, after we have first done a basic study in the field of Hadith, we can learn how Muhammad(saws) practiced Islam. But there has to be caution when studying the ahadith. While the number of known Ahadith are probably in the Millions, only a very small percentage have been authenticated.
One needs to know the history of a compilation and Based upon the known evidence establish a determination on the reliability and authenticity of each Hadith.
However looking at the proponderance of evidence found in the Ahadith we are able to ascertain such things as to how and when Muhammad(saws) performed wadu. When and how he performed the obligatory prayers. How the Shahadah was worded (There are at least 3 variations I am aware of, each considered to be valid)also to some extent we learn how Muhammad(saws) interpreted the Qur'an.
If a Hadith contradicts the Qur'an it is assumed not to be an authenticate or reliable Hadith.
The primary usage of ahadith is the development of Shariah (Islamic Jurisprudence). The Qur'an is not a set of commands, it is a guide as to why Islam not how. any actual commands come later in the form of Shariah. However, shariah is a completely different topic from this thread.
If I am understanding the thread title the thread is about explaining what is meant by " 24:54 Obey Allah and obey the Messenger"
In simplicity it means to follow the example of Muhammad(saws). There are no compilations of orders or commands directed by Muhammad(saws). We only have examples of what he did in the Ahadith and Sunnah So basically the only commands we have knowledge of are what Muhammad(saws) gave to his companions. such as the rules of conduct during war
10 Islamic Rules of War
Before engaging in battle, the Prophet Muhammad (SAW) instructed his soldiers:
1. “Do not kill any child, any woman, or any elder or sick person.” (Sunan Abu Dawud)
2. “Do not practice treachery or mutilation.(Al-Muwatta)
3. Do not uproot or burn palms or cut down fruitful trees.(Al-Muwatta)
4. Do not slaughter a sheep or a cow or a camel, except for food.” (Al-Muwatta)
5. “If one fights his brother, [he must] avoid striking the face, for God created him in the image of Adam.” (Sahih Bukhari, Sahih Muslim)
6. “Do not kill the monks in monasteries, and do not kill those sitting in places of worship. (Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal)
7. “Do not destroy the villages and towns, do not spoil the cultivated fields and gardens, and do not slaughter the cattle.” (Sahih Bukhari; Sunan Abu Dawud)
8. “Do not wish for an encounter with the enemy; pray to God to grant you security; but when you [are forced to] encounter them, exercise patience.” (Sahih Muslim)
9. “No one may punish with fire except the Lord of Fire.” (Sunan Abu Dawud).
10. “Accustom yourselves to do good if people do good, and to not do wrong even if they commit evil.” (Al-Tirmidhi)
The Qur'an is complete. However it is an explanation of why we should perform Islam and why we should worship Allaah(swt) alone.
It is not a textbook on how to worship or how to perform Islam. For that we have to look at how Muhammad(saws) performed Islam.
Do you agree the sole authoritative texts of Islam is the Complete, Perfect and final Quran and nothing else?
Your use of "perform" is very misleading.
"Performance" do not have a direct link to what Allah intended.
Your phrase "Perform Islam" is very odd and weird.
The Quran is a reminder from Allah to command mankind to be a Muslim as an adherent of Islam.
Whatever necessary is stipulated in this verse;
5:3 This day have I [Allah] Perfected your religion [deenakum] for you [Muslims] and completed My favour unto you [Muslims], and have chosen for you [Muslims] as religion [deenan] AL-ISLAM.
When Allah stated Allah has perfected and completed a religion [Islam] for Muslims, it would imply Allah has already covered what is to be performed, albeit not in details. The details are secondary.
When you say the Quran do not teach one how to perform Islam, it is weird and contradict 5:3 and thus you are implying Allah is incompetent and incomplete.
My point is the Quran is complete, perfect, final as proclaimed by Allah and that imply it covers all it take for one to be the best Muslim.
As for the Ahadiths which may guide Muslims to perform this or that act, but it has no divine authority with Allah and Islam.
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