Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I looked at this website and it is propaganda and not true.
For example:
PROTECTION OF HUMAN LIFE; HUMAN LIFE IS EXTREMELY SACRED IN ISLAM. ONE OF THE MOST GRIEVOUS SINS IS TO DESTROY LIFE AND TO KILL ANOTHER HUMAN BEING.
This is not what the Quran says!!
There is a verse that Muslims use dishonestly and completely out of context to try to pretend human life is sacred to them:
“…if any one killed a person, it would be as if he killed the whole of mankind; and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole of mankind…” - The Holy Quran (Chapter Five, Verse 32).
This is complete BS. In truth, this verse reads:
On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land." from the Noble Quran, translation by Yusuf Ali Surat Al-Ma'idah [5:32] - The Noble Qur'an - ?????? ??????
This was a commandment to the Children of Israel, i.e. the Jews! Not the Muslims!! Even if this were a command to the Muslims, there's still an escape clause: "unless it be for murder or spreading mischief in the land." If someone is "spreading mischief", he can still be killed. What does 'spreading mischief' mean? Terrorists and 'moderate' Muslims alike think that America and Jews are 'spreading mischief' in Palestine and the middle east. Aren't I 'spreading mischief' by talking about the evil in Islam.
The next verse reads:
"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;"
Well, that certainly ruins the claim that:
PROTECTION OF HUMAN LIFE; HUMAN LIFE IS EXTREMELY SACRED IN ISLAM. ONE OF THE MOST GRIEVOUS SINS IS TO DESTROY LIFE AND TO KILL ANOTHER HUMAN BEING.
Other verses:
"It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war (and free them with ransom) until he had made a great slaughter (among his enemies) in the land. You desire the good of this world (i.e. the money of ransom for freeing the captives), but Allah desires (for you) the Hereafter. And Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise."
"So, when you meet (in fight Jihad in Allah's Cause), those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives). Thereafter (is the time) either for generosity (i.e. free them without ransom), or ransom (according to what benefits Islam), until the war lays down its burden. Thus [you are ordered by Allah to continue in carrying out Jihad against the disbelievers till they embrace Islam (i.e. are saved from the punishment in the Hell-fire) or at least come under your protection], but if it had been Allah's Will, He Himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight), in order to test you, some with others. But those who are killed in the Way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost,"
"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."
How did Muhammed act?
"The Prophet had suddenly attacked Bani Mustaliq without warning while they were heedless and their cattle were being watered at the places of water. Their fighting men were killed and their women and children were taken as captives" (Bukhari 46:717)
In many situations, Muhammad waged war for the purpose of revenge, such as the attack on the Lihyan, in which the people were clearly not prepared for war and saved themselves only by fleeing into the hills (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 718).
Then the apostle sent Khalid bin Walid… to the Banu al-Harith and ordered him to invite them to Islam three days before he attacked them. If they accepted then he was to accept it from them, and if they declined he was to fight them. So Khalid set out and came to them, and sent out riders in all directions inviting the people to Islam, saying, “If you accept Islam you will be safe.” So the men accepted Islam as they were invited. (Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 959)
Allah's Messenger called Ali [and said]: “Proceed on and do not look about until Allah grants you victory,” and Ali went a bit and then halted and did not look about and then said in a loud voice: “Allah's Messenger, on what issue should I fight with the people?” Thereupon he (the Prophet) said: ”Fight with them until they bear testimony to the fact that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his Messenger…” (Sahih Muslim 5917)
This is a small sample. Muhammed liked to send his men to slaughter anyone who spoke against him.
From what I read of the articles, the views therein so far are very superficial and do not address the root causes.
For a starter I think we should consider what Maajid Nawaz [a 'moderate' Muslim] called the Voldemort effect, i.e. denying Islam is a part of the problem or ISIS has nothing to do with Islam.
From what I read of the articles, the views therein so far are very superficial and do not address the root causes.
For a starter I think we should consider what Maajid Nawaz [a 'moderate' Muslim] called the Voldemort effect, i.e. denying Islam is a part of the problem or ISIS has nothing to do with Islam.
I think one needs to look at the actual source and meaning of "Voldemort Effect"
Quote:
About four years ago, some liberal over at Think Progress came up with the term “Voldemort Effect.†Â Using the main plot of the Harry Potter series, this lefty thought he was being cute and invented an idiom that really meant nothing, but was supposed to be a sort of echo chamber euphemism for what happens when conservatives get an idea in their heads that some liberal sacred cow or politician is less than what the left presents and proceeds to tear their constructs apart.
Read more at Islamic Terrorism And The Voldemort Effect - Why Obama Avoids Calling ISIS What It Is ⋆ Dc Gazette
While we as Muslims do have to acknowledge ISIS can not be called non-Muslims, we do need to point out why many of us do not believe they are performing Islam.
Quote:
More than 120 Muslim leaders and scholars have co-signed an open letter to Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, leader of ISIS, arguing the Islamic State caliphate's establishment and practices are not legitimate in Islam. The letter includes a technical point-by-point criticism of ISIS' actions and ideology based on the Quran and classical religious texts. From Religion News Service: Muslims scholars' open letter to ISIS: Baghdadi, caliphate's actions against Qur'an, Islam.
Al-Azhar: Islamic State Is Corrupt And “A Danger To Islam.†Lebanese paper The Daily Star reported that Al-Azhar’s Grand Mufti Shawqi Allam, Egypt’s highest religious authority, denounced the Islamic State as a threat to Islam and said that the group both violates Sharia law and humanitarian law: “[They] give an opportunity for those who seek to harm us, to destroy us and interfere in our affairs with the [pretext of a] call to fight terrorism.†[The Daily Star, 8/13/14]
Arab League: “Strongly Denounced†The “Crimes Against Humanity†Carried Out By The Islamic State. On August 11, Nabil al-Arabi, the Arab League Chief, denounced acts committed by the Islamic State in Iraq as “crimes against humanity,†demanding that they be brought to justice. According to Al Arabiya News, he said in a statement that he “strongly denounced the crimes, killings, dispossession carried out by the terrorist (ISIS) against civilians and minorities in Iraq that have affected Christians in Mosul and Yazidis.†[Al Arabiya News, 8/11/14]
Turkey’s Top Cleric: Islamic State’s Threats Are “Hugely Damaging,†“Truly Awful.†Turkey’s highest ranking cleric, Mehmet Gormez, decried the Islamic State’s declaration of a “caliphate†and argued that the statements were damaging to the Muslim community, according to Reuters:
I think one needs to look at the actual source and meaning of "Voldemort Effect"
While we as Muslims do have to acknowledge ISIS can not be called non-Muslims, we do need to point out why many of us do not believe they are performing Islam.
The 'moderates' can condemn, believe and claim all they want.
But they are merely human beings and not Allah.
Thus what authority do they have to insist they are right.
Ultimately it is Allah who decides not human beings.
Majority consensus do not equal to right or truth according to the Quran.
Many a times, the majority consensus have been proven to be wrong.
The original meaning of the "Voldemort Effect" is from Harry Potter.
Maajid Nawaz borrowed this term to represent [analogically not literally] what he intend it to be, i.e. denial of the reality of a problem.
It is like those in West Africa who deny Ebola is due to a virus despite proven with evidence by the World's notable scientists. The denial "Voldemorters" insist it is due to some evil spirits or the work of some witches.
Ebola 'patient zero's' dad: I thought it was witchcraft
The point is if one deny the root cause, there is no way one can even address the problem effectively to take preventive actions.
In this case, the Muslims and apologists will deny and blame USA-the-Great Satan [in a way prophesized in the Quran] for the major problems of the Muslim World instead of looking at their own 'three fingers' i.e. their own religion.
Last edited by Continuum; 10-18-2015 at 11:45 PM..
The liberal media is beginning to admit that Islam has a formal doctrine of jihad. They have been forced into this admission due to the constant propaganda of jihad doctrine by ISIS. Now the media says that Islamic State, ISIS, has a narrow interpretation of Islam. But, it is just opposite, ISIS has the broadest interpretation of Islam.
Islamic doctrine is slowly revealed, just like the Koran. It has an early form in Mecca and a fully developed later form in Medina. Now these may contradict each other, but both are true. The law of abrogation says that the later doctrine is better or stronger than the earlier doctrine.
ISIS uses all of the doctrine, including Medina. The so-called peaceful Muslims do not use all of the doctrine, just the early Meccan form.
So the peaceful Muslims have the narrow, exclusive interpretation.
ISIS and all of the jihadists have the broadest interpretation, which is inclusive.
The liberal media is beginning to admit that Islam has a formal doctrine of jihad. They have been forced into this admission due to the constant propaganda of jihad doctrine by ISIS. Now the media says that Islamic State, ISIS, has a narrow interpretation of Islam. But, it is just opposite, ISIS has the broadest interpretation of Islam.
Islamic doctrine is slowly revealed, just like the Koran. It has an early form in Mecca and a fully developed later form in Medina. Now these may contradict each other, but both are true. The law of abrogation says that the later doctrine is better or stronger than the earlier doctrine.
ISIS uses all of the doctrine, including Medina. The so-called peaceful Muslims do not use all of the doctrine, just the early Meccan form.
So the peaceful Muslims have the narrow, exclusive interpretation.
ISIS and all of the jihadists have the broadest interpretation, which is inclusive.
It also needs to be remembered that jihad does not always require physical force. The most difficult jihad (the conquest of our inner thoughts) comes through knowledge, not violence.
In today's world I believe the most effective form of jihad is through logic and understanding. Physical violence is historically a very poor choice of weapon.
I do believe that after the coming of the Mehdi and the return of Jesus(a.s.) the entire world will accept Islam but it will come from understanding and free choice not through force.
Abrogation in the Qur'an is greatly misunderstood. The Medina Surat did not replace the Mecca surat.
The Islamic view on abrogation can be found on Islamic sites, not the anti-Islamic sites:
The Quran says in the following verse:
"None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: knowest thou not that Allah hath power over all things?"
[Al-Qur’an 2:106]
A reference to this is also made in chapter 16 verse 101 of Surah Nahl. The Arabic word mentioned is ayat which means ‘signs’ or ‘verses’ and which can also mean ‘revelations’. This verse of the Qur’an can be interpreted in two different ways:
a. The revelations that are abrogated are those revelations that were revealed before the Qur’an, for example the Torah, the Zaboor and the Injeel.
Here Allah (swt) says that He does not cause the previous revelations to be forgotten but He substitutes them with something better or similar, indicating that the Torah, the Zaboor and the Injeel were substituted by the Qur’an.
(16:101)- “When we replace a message with another and God knows best what He reveals, they say you have made it up. Yet most of them do not know†Refuting lies about Islam: Abrogation in the Quran
INTRODUCTION
The abrogation of Quranic verses, arguably the greatest lie against the Quran, was originally invented during the fourth century A.H. (late 10th century A.D.) by some Muslim scholars notably Ahmed Bin Ishaq Al-Dinary (died 318 A.H.), Mohamad Bin Bahr Al-Asbahany (died 322 A.H.), Hebat Allah Bin Salamah (died 410 A.H.) and Mohamad Bin Mousa Al-Hazmy (died 548 A.H.), whose book about Al-Nasekh and Al-Mansoukh is regarded as one of the leading references in the subject.
This concept invented originally by these scholars, claims that there are some verses in the Quran that have been abrogated and invalidated by other verses!
The verse that is the abrogator they call (Al-Nasekh) while the abrogated verse they call (Al-Mansoukh).
These scholars have come up with hundreds of cases of abrogated verses to the extent that they have formulated a whole science of the subject filling lengthy books and references.
The principle of 'abrogation' (Arabic: nasakh) claims that some verses of the Quran are in effect abrogated, superseded and replaced by other verses of the Quran and Prophetic traditions. This is arguably one of the most dangerous, highly controversial and baseless assertion against the Divine scripture of God.
Not only does this fanciful assertion conjure up an image of a human author attempting to correct and edit various drafts of his manuscripts, to suit ever changing circumstances and correcting mistakes, a deeper analysis of the Quran reveals, that this a doctrine that is completely unfounded and cannot be supported by the Quran itself. Abrogation
Note:
This article clarifies the often misinterpreted subject of "the doctrine of abrogation and the Qur'an". It is also a response to an article on Christian web <answering-islam.org>. Below is the text from Christian web site <answering-islam.org>: Are the verses of the Qur'an Abrogated and/or Subtituted?
Among the verses in the Quran containing orders or laws there are verses that abrogate verses previously revealed and acted upon. These abrogating verse are called _nasikh_ and those whose validity they terminate are called _mansukh_.
The common notion of abrogation, that is, canceling of one law or code by another, is based on the idea that a new law is needed because of a mistake or shortcoming in the previous one. It is clearly inappropriate to ascribe a mistake in law-making to God, Who is perfect, and whose creation admit of no flaws.
However, in the Quran, the abrogating verses mark the end of the validity of the abrogated verses because their heed and effect was of a temporary or limited nature. In time the new law appears and announces the end of the validity of the earlier law. Considering that Quran was revealed over a period of twenty-three years in ever-changing circumstances, it is not difficult to imagine the necessity of such laws.
It is in this light that we should regard the wisdom of abrogation within the Quran:
"And when we put a revelation in place of (another) revelation and Allah knows best what He reveals -- they say: you are just inventing it. Most of them do not know. Say: The Holy Spirit (Gibril) has revealed it from your hand with truth and as a guidance and good news for those who have surrendered (to God)" [16:101-102]
It is a science on its own in Islam to know the Nasikh and Mansukh.
Hajj Gibril
Please remember there is no Nasikh or mansookh in the Quran. There is no verse abrogated or abrogating verse. If there is any then it may please (both) be presented here on the forum.
About Alcohol, there are three verses all still valid.
1. In the drinking (wine) and in gambling there are advantages and losses for men. But the losses (disadvantages) are more than the advantages....
2. O, Believers, do not go near prayer when you are drunk......
3. Surely the wine and gambling are the dirty works of the devil. So keep away from them.... So that you may achieve comfort....
Please note that all the above verses are valid even today... Tell us which is abrogated.. Welcome,,,, more later.....
It also needs to be remembered that jihad does not always require physical force. The most difficult jihad (the conquest of our inner thoughts) comes through knowledge, not violence.
In today's world I believe the most effective form of jihad is through logic and understanding. Physical violence is historically a very poor choice of weapon.
I agree 'jihad' does not always require physical force. That is not the issue.
There are various forms of jihad.
The problem is the Quran condoned a form of jihad that allow physical force, evil, violence and terror be committed on non-Muslims if the religion is wronged and just because non-Muslims disbelieved [kafara].
The concept of 'wronged' is very vague in the Quran and since there is no central authority any one can interpret 'wronged' whenever the feel threatened or psychologically disturbed. Note even 'cartoons' are wrong.
The other significant factor is the potential quantum of sensitive evil prone Muslims who will not hesitate to commit violence and evils whenever they as Muslim are or their religion is 'wronged'.
Note a pool of 300 million if 20% are sensitive and evil prone.
Quote:
Abrogation in the Qur'an is greatly misunderstood. The Medina Surat did not replace the Mecca surat.
The Islamic view on abrogation can be found on Islamic sites, not the anti-Islamic sites:
The Quran says in the following verse:
"None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: knowest thou not that Allah hath power over all things?"
[Al-Qur’an 2:106]
The verses dealing in abrogation are 2:106, 13:39, 16:101, 17:85-86, 87-6-7.
Here is a quickie on the matter of abrogation. Abrogation (Naskh) - WikiIslam
There are 3 classes of abrogation;
1 -substituted,
2 - by addition,
3. -removed entirely e.g. the Satanic verses
If the Quran was supposed to be from God, the all knowing and all powerful, there would have been no need for abrogation. The need for abrogation was because it was actually written by men over a period of time.
Certain chapters were invoked to justify personal interests, e.g. sanctioning the marrying of daughter-in-law, rebuking slanders of adultery of his wife, rebuking wives for jealousy, etc.
It is obvious the psychological desperate believers will NEVER see any thing that is deemed negative to their belief. Note Macquire's Inoculation Theory, Confirmation Bias and all sort of bias and cognitive Blindness that necessary to shield believers from terrible psychological pains from truth in reality.
Since the Quran was claimed to be written over 23 years, the chronological order is significant.
The Medina chapters do not necessary replace everything of the Mecca.
The eschatological and soteriological doctrines, the Biblical stories of Islam did not change significantly throughout the 23 years of the Quran.
What changed was the psychological state of Muhammad the person over the years and the chronological chapters.
When one read the Quran in chronological order, one can sense the rising crescendo of the martial and violence ethos emanating from Muhammad's psyche, i.e. from a genial preacher right from the start and with increasing level of violence as time progresses as Muhammad was rejected by the Quraish, Jews and Christians culminating in the uncompromising horrific contents of chapter 9.
I agree 'jihad' does not always require physical force. That is not the issue.
There are various forms of jihad.
The problem is the Quran condoned a form of jihad that allow physical force, evil, violence and terror be committed on non-Muslims if the religion is wronged and just because non-Muslims disbelieved [kafara].
The concept of 'wronged' is very vague in the Quran and since there is no central authority any one can interpret 'wronged' whenever the feel threatened or psychologically disturbed. Note even 'cartoons' are wrong.
The other significant factor is the potential quantum of sensitive evil prone Muslims who will not hesitate to commit violence and evils whenever they as Muslim are or their religion is 'wronged'.
Note a pool of 300 million if 20% are sensitive and evil prone.
The verses dealing in abrogation are 2:106, 13:39, 16:101, 17:85-86, 87-6-7.
Here is a quickie on the matter of abrogation. Abrogation (Naskh) - WikiIslam
There are 3 classes of abrogation;
1 -substituted,
2 - by addition,
3. -removed entirely e.g. the Satanic verses
If the Quran was supposed to be from God, the all knowing and all powerful, there would have been no need for abrogation. The need for abrogation was because it was actually written by men over a period of time.
Certain chapters were invoked to justify personal interests, e.g. sanctioning the marrying of daughter-in-law, rebuking slanders of adultery of his wife, rebuking wives for jealousy, etc.
It is obvious the psychological desperate believers will NEVER see any thing that is deemed negative to their belief. Note Macquire's Inoculation Theory, Confirmation Bias and all sort of bias and cognitive Blindness that necessary to shield believers from terrible psychological pains from truth in reality.
Since the Quran was claimed to be written over 23 years, the chronological order is significant.
The Medina chapters do not necessary replace everything of the Mecca.
The eschatological and soteriological doctrines, the Biblical stories of Islam did not change significantly throughout the 23 years of the Quran.
What changed was the psychological state of Muhammad the person over the years and the chronological chapters.
When one read the Quran in chronological order, one can sense the rising crescendo of the martial and violence ethos emanating from Muhammad's psyche, i.e. from a genial preacher right from the start and with increasing level of violence as time progresses as Muhammad was rejected by the Quraish, Jews and Christians culminating in the uncompromising horrific contents of chapter 9.
While it is true it took 23 years to complete the Qur'an. Only the smaller Surat were revealed in one discourse. Many of the Longer ones were revealed over periods of years. Some of the discourses revealed in Mecca, some in Medina, some during the time of exile in other locations and finally compiled into Surah in Medina. The Surat are clasified as Meccan or Median an where ayyat 1 was revealed. However this can lead to confusion as even in the surah the ayyats are usually not in the chronological order, but in the order of story continuity. In Surah 2 the first ayyat revealed is the last ayyat.
Most of the Surah from 2-78 contain ayyat from both Mecca and Medina. but each is classified in accordance to where ayyat 1 was revealed. However ayyat one is not always the first one chronologically revealed.
Each of the 114 Surah has to be considered a seperate book, each with it's own message. Many of the Surah were being revealed at the same time and the chapters within arrainged not by chronological order but in order of reference.
I can not reiterate it enough, the abrogations did not make any of the Meccan Surat invalid as wikislam would lead you to believe.
While it is true it took 23 years to complete the Qur'an. Only the smaller Surat were revealed in one discourse. Many of the Longer ones were revealed over periods of years. Some of the discourses revealed in Mecca, some in Medina, some during the time of exile in other locations and finally compiled into Surah in Medina. The Surat are clasified as Meccan or Median an where ayyat 1 was revealed. However this can lead to confusion as even in the surah the ayyats are usually not in the chronological order, but in the order of story continuity. In Surah 2 the first ayyat revealed is the last ayyat.
Most of the Surah from 2-78 contain ayyat from both Mecca and Medina. but each is classified in accordance to where ayyat 1 was revealed. However ayyat one is not always the first one chronologically revealed.
Each of the 114 Surah has to be considered a seperate book, each with it's own message. Many of the Surah were being revealed at the same time and the chapters within arrainged not by chronological order but in order of reference.
I can not reiterate it enough, the abrogations did not make any of the Meccan Surat invalid as wikislam would lead you to believe.
If it took 23 years to complete the Quran, then there must be an element of chronology to it - this point cannot be disputed.
The question and problem is how to identify the timing for each chapter.
Fortunately there are some hermeneutical elements that we can rely upon to help us the identify the closest possible chronologically order which I rely upon, i.e.
1. Historical - useful to identify the Mecca chapters
2. Anthropological
3. Philosophy of religion
4. Philosophy of God-men
5. Evolutionary psychology
6. Neuro-psychology
7. Various neuroscience
8. Philosophy of cults
9. Biblical religions
10. Philosophy of human nature
11. Etc.
Chapter 2 is chronologically a 'Meccan' chapter. Chapter 2 is a sort of a summary with repetitions of the previous Meccan elements then added with the newer Medinian elements on social and martial elements.
Simply to categorize the verses as Meccan or Medinian is not very effective.
In terms of chronology we can categorize the Quran chronological phases in terms of doctrinal and the personal state of Muhammad in time, i.e.
Stages in Chronological Order
1. Eschatological and soteriology phase - Preaching to the idolaters (1-40)*
2. Introducing Biblical stories to patronize and entice Jews, Christians and others, and to model himself to past prophets. [41-85]
3. Perturbed by rejections and mocking by Jews, Christians and idolaters
4. Progressively martial and violent
5. All out martial and violence in vengeance
* chapter per chronological order [refer Noldeke's and others]
Chapter 2 is placed between stages 3 and 4 as Muhammad was getting perturbed [asked to be patient] and starting to get aggressive.
The point is some of the early eschatological, soteriological and biblical stories are repeated in chapter 2 and other later chapters but they get lesser in time. Meanwhile the warring verses increases chronologically toward the final chapter 9 with no bother for the 'Bismillah'.
The Wiki reference re abrogation was merely a quickie reference. After 11 months of full time study I have my own understanding of the abrogation concept in the Quran in the chronological perspective.
Last edited by Continuum; 10-20-2015 at 10:04 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
ISIS - The Broadest Interpretation of Islam
