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What's beyond doubting is the massive incentive to produce high capacity batteries for all electric cars.
High capacity batteries exist. They've been around for decades. Remember, WW2 submarines ran on batteries. The problem with all batteries is that they're based on chemical reactions, and are finite, finicky, and slow charging.
And did I forget to mention - large?
Electric cars like the Aptera (http://www.aptera.com/faqs.php - broken link) and Tesla cost dearly because of that pesky battery pack.
Now, if those same electric cars could tap into an overhead wire system, as trolley buses can, then they'd be less dependent upon their batteries.
Gee - while we're putting up all those overhead power wires, let's lay some track for streetcars, while we're at it.
Jeez... are you just trying to type more words than me? ha
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Originally Posted by jetgraphics
But RANGE...
How much has battery technology improved in the past 20 years? 40? 80?
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Originally Posted by jetgraphics
yet the bulk of Americans lived without automobiles and got around on electric rail between 1890 and 1930.
False. The bulk of Americans did not get around on electric rail. Your predominant mode of transportation prior to automobiles was the horse and buggy. What you say wasn't even true in most urban areas where rail existed. The use of horses still far outnumbered the use of rail.
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Originally Posted by jetgraphics
Though rail has a high initial cost, its lifespan is far longer than the automobile / road paradigm.
Again... (echo echo echo)... your rail system cannot possibly go everywhere and be cost effective. DC recently studied extending its metro to Fort Belvoir, with an estimated cost of $800 MILLION PER MILE. That might end up making sense for DC, but it has significantly higher density neighborhoods and employment centers than Huntsville.
God forbid one lives in the country.
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Originally Posted by jetgraphics
I disagree. IMHO, (partly based on an education in mechanical and electrical engineering), the scientific and engineering data points to RAIL as the winner for the remainder of the 21st century.
You act as if there is some sort of consensus on this. I'm sorry, but there is not. There simply will not be a one size fits all solution to transportation. Are you sending a rail line out to my family's farm in BFE Kansas? Hell, I doubt rail would even make it out to my house here in Huntsville.
Honestly, I think several of your views are short sighted. Consider that more and more of our labor force performs tasks where physical presence is not required. Why continue shuttling office workers to and fro from centralized offices so they can peck away at their keyboards alongside one another's cubicle? The future is in tele-presence... a step beyond traditional telecommuting. $800 million / mile rail? Or tele-commuting?
Light rail is a high population density solution... that's it.
You simply cannot convince me that we ought to spend billions (trillions?) building tons of rail lines everywhere when I am convinced that in the long run people in suburban areas will opt for a system of intelligent electric cars that take them exactly where they need to go without stopping - while your rail apparently will have dozens and dozens of stops to serve everyone it needs to serve. The future will have many fuels. Rail's role will be in connecting metro areas and provide transportation in high population density areas. Hydrogen or Bio-fuels may be necessary in areas where batteries prove problematic. There IS NOT a single silver bullet solution. I don't know what you've been reading, but that is the only concensus of which I've read.
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Originally Posted by jetgraphics
Now, if those same electric cars could tap into an overhead wire system, as trolley buses can, then they'd be less dependent upon their batteries.
Gee - while we're putting up all those overhead power wires, let's lay some track for streetcars, while we're at it.
Why place the lines over head? Why not embed it in the road surface? Why build track at all? An electric car would be able to travel on battery power alone on roads that are not "powered". With track, you've locked yourself into the track. Are you going to grade separate every intersection for rail?
If you wish to continue this discussion (though I can't imagine why), please do so in private messages - this is no longer about Huntsville.
Last edited by DvlsAdvc8; 06-02-2009 at 09:47 AM..
If you wish to continue this discussion (though I can't imagine why), please do so in private messages - this is no longer about Huntsville.--DvlsAdvc8
Apparently you feel as if you totally ended the desire of others to have light-rail in Huntsville--well, you didn't because I am still for it as much as you are against it. The same argument that you've used to oppose a light-rail project can be used to support it as well. If you are against it for reasons you feel valid, just remember that others are for it for valid reasons too. Why can't you imagine why some of us want to have a discussion about light-rail? BTW, sorry if you are not a female I mean no disrespect to you but I can imagine you as you attempting to get your point across in a public discussion about a subject matter--pointing your finger with one hand on your hip and wiggling your neck and speaking your mind and snapping(as if you said something really big) and spinning around and twisting away as if this conversation is over. lmao.....It ain't over so come back and finish =)
Apparently you feel as if you totally ended the desire of others to have light-rail in Huntsville--well, you didn't because I am still for it as much as you are against it. The same argument that you've used to oppose a light-rail project can be used to support it as well. If you are against it for reasons you feel valid, just remember that others are for it for valid reasons too. Why can't you imagine why some of us want to have a discussion about light-rail? BTW, sorry if you are not a female I mean no disrespect to you but I can imagine you as you attempting to get your point across in a public discussion about a subject matter--pointing your finger with one hand on your hip and wiggling your neck and speaking your mind and snapping(as if you said something really big) and spinning around and twisting away as if this conversation is over. lmao.....It ain't over so come back and finish =)
Not at all! And no, I'm not female. I'm a male software engineer. My point is that the merit of rail as a solution to pending oil crisis is not specific to rail in Huntsville. If Jet wants to talk about that, I invite him to do so via direct message. I totally welcome the thread to continue but it should be specific to rail in huntsville.
I'm all for rail, but not the sort of all-world rail-everywhere solution that Jet is describing... and I honestly don't think its time has come in Huntsville. And as for trolley's, which are more economical, I just can't wait for electric lines to be strewn everywhere for rail constrained transportation... it will be so beautiful. (sarcasm) I once lived in New Orleans (Pre-katrina), and just about anyone who lived there will tell you how inefficient (in terms of travel time) the trolley's are.
Further more, as we discussed, there are still decades worth of oil available. As long as relatively cheap oil is available, any light rail in huntsville will go under utilized. Build it now?
Even in Norway, which pays almost 3 times what the US consumer pays for gas at the pump (and more than all of europe from what I can find), you don't see light rail in cities of Huntsville's size. Bergen, which is twice the size of Huntsville has no light rail, and a whole 8 trolley buses running on a single functioning line. Trondheim, about the same size as Huntsville, has a 5 mile tram and only in the last decade has there been talk of expansion... and even then, only an extension, not some elaborate network. This at $9.00 / gal. for gas.
There is a reason we don't see privately owned electric trolleys anymore, the rise of the automobile put them out of business. They won't be viable again until the death of the automobile some 20+ years from now... and that only assuming that no alternative individual transportation has been found.
In the end, the majority will choose a 120 mile range electric car like the Aptera that charges in under 8 hours (work day?) that can get them directly from their garage to their workplace quickly with few stops (and one day, no stops) over the amazingly energy efficient, slow, repeatedly stopping (to board), rail constrained-can't-go-everywhere trolley or light rail.
Last edited by DvlsAdvc8; 06-02-2009 at 02:39 PM..
So you're argument isn't against light-rail but you give reasons why you think Huntsville is not ready for it. I don't think that we have to or need to wait until cities of our size, a little larger than our city or double our size to implement light-rail as a justification for us to move forward with this idea. Sure, we need statistics and other ways for transportation improvement that require us to utilize the data that already exist for what other cities have tried, but that information is only needed to draw a conclusion for feasibility. So the question is whether or not light-rail in Huntsville is feasible? The answer is if it is more effecient, equal to or less expensive than building multi-lane highways, then YES. If we do and prove that it worked for us then it will be especially helpful for the the rest of states. You know what bothers me is that to do something here locally that is unprecendented and without a sure success rate, we shy away from the challenge--but turn around and let another city/state take the risk of trying it and being successful with it and then trying to implement it locally. By time we wait for others to do it, or for Huntsville to need it--it will too late. You said before that you doubt a train would come out to the country to yours or your relatives' homes...? Um...were you being sarcastic because that would be a little unrealistic to think that light-rail would go to an area that was unpopulated and wouldn't really be interested in coming into the city that often. The light-rail would allow more action between entertainment and retail centers. If I am already at Bridgestreet and I want to go downtown for a bit, I would prefer to hop on the train--this may be a project that could help keep up with and control growth and keep sprawl down.
So you're argument isn't against light-rail but you give reasons why you think Huntsville is not ready for it.
In a manner of speaking... yes. It's not that I think Huntsville doesn't have the "frame of mind", but it lacks "critical mass". If liberal/progressive european cities with 3 times the price we pay for gas aren't demanding trains (still preferring the individual auto), then its reasonable to assume that Huntsville's dedication to the auto is even more entrenched and would probably take an even higher price of gas to spark widespread demand for light rail.
Failing that, few will care to have rail, because their cars will get them to work faster and give them the flexibility of saying "oo... I feel like going to that restaurant that isn't right off the rail line" at any time.
Huntsville lacks the population density, it lacks the traffic and gas-powered cars will remain relatively affordable for more than a decade. With people buying $60,000 SUVs that get 14 mpg, you seriously think they won't be able to afford driving a car that gets 50+ mpg when the price of gas quadruples?
No, it is not the time for trains. First cars will get smaller and more efficient, and not until a large portion of the population can no longer afford to drive their car will people want to ride rail vs the auto... and all of this assumes ever rising demand for oil and lack of alternatives.
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Originally Posted by Huntsville
The answer is if it is more effecient, equal to or less expensive than building multi-lane highways, then YES.
This is how you know Huntsville is a town of engineers. It's all about efficiency - as if that's the only thing that matters and people's motivations are entirely utilitarian. Efficiency of a train isn't worth a hill of beans if few use it. As long as its faster and affordable to drive a personal auto, people will do so even though it costs more than the train - it is by far the majority preference, even in Europe with 3 times higher gas prices (as I showed; not to mention other disincentives facing the auto). It won't be for another 20 years (or more) before true pain is felt at the pump; the sort of pain that might shift the paradigm in absense of another solution. Meanwhile, you've got a little used light rail that cost you hundreds of millions of dollars per mile... I'm sure that will fly with the tax payers.
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Originally Posted by Huntsville
The light-rail would allow more action between entertainment and retail centers. If I am already at Bridgestreet and I want to go downtown for a bit, I would prefer to hop on the train--this may be a project that could help keep up with and control growth and keep sprawl down.
Yep, that's great, and as I said before I really enjoy riding the DC metro when I lived there. However, DC has a significantly greater population density than Huntsville and Huntsville has relatively little incentive to choose rail over auto in the next couple decades. People will only walk so far to a train station. In larger cities this is fine, they have a large amount of people clustered tightly. It simply won't be worth the money spent in Huntsville... and not for quite a while.
This is why I suspect Jet backed off of "light rail" and began focusing on "electric trolleys"... which though cheaper than light rail, will be even slower and less safe (following the model of mixing them with regular auto traffic as they were back in the day (and which Trondheim and Bergen use in my example) - drawing from his example of early 1900s trolleys). I doubt that will outcompete the auto either despite being significantly less expensive than light rail.
Last edited by DvlsAdvc8; 06-03-2009 at 09:11 AM..
Why spend big $$$ on rail system? We should convert our existing roads to bicycle only. Huntsville is not that big. For people like me who live in Madison and work in research park, riding bicycle to work is very reasonable. Then, we will save the environment, using 0 gas, 0 electricity, while we can even solve the obesity problem.
So, we have discussed this issue you made your points and I made mine. We are back at square one--some want it and some don't. For those that do want it, we give reasons why it will work for Huntsville and for those who oppose--you bring other cities into the mix. Huntsville help put man on the moon and that made the city more successful, if the ones who opposed that would have said "well no other city has done that why do we need to do it"--then, well we probably wouldn't be employeed in this city right now.
"This is how we Huntsville is a town of engineers."--DvlsAdvc8
Surely you don't have a problem with engineers being an influence in Huntsville. If not for effeciency then we wouldn't have the automobile...etc, etc,etc... I do comprehend your assessment of light-rail in Huntsville, but I don't understand why if it will not cause any direct harm to you, why you are so opposed to it. It seems kind of like your just throwing in road blocks for the heck of it. If Huntsville doesn't do this project I will be dissappointed because I look forward to using light-rail here, and you can still drive your car everywhere if you choose to. If Huntsville does the light-rail project, you can still drive your car everywahere if you choose to. Get my point?
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