Houston traffic in comparison (Austin, Spring: employment, living in, costs)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Come on rail in Houston is a stupendous boondoggle. Instead of going elevated, underground or exclusive ROW they take up valuable street real estate, causing car-train collisions and much confusion to motorists like me, even after 11 years of this bad joke. I rode the red line north both ways last week and virtually none of the people were buying tickets. I think besides myself I saw one guy buying a ticket.
But just do understand it: this is a coercive transfer of wealth to the lower income people, great if that is where you are philosophically, enjoying all the waste of 20% seat occupancy with 2 paying riders per mile. Not so great if you appreciate conservation of resources.
This is a huge waste just to get the benefit of a boost to civic pride. And admit it, that is the only widespread benefit, pride. Or maybe avoidance of some kind of civic low esteem, low self image or something.
Well, that hasn't been my experience, so I disagree. I've seen very full rail cars when I've used it. People buying tickets. A huge service to the congested medical center. A great way to move between the med center and downtown. If it hooked into the Galleria (i.e. if politicians hadn't killed that branch) there would even greater ridership.
If the goal were a "coercive transfer of wealth to the lower income people" then it's a pretty poor way of doing that. But you have your little conspiracy theory to keep you warm at night; I won't take that away.
Well, that hasn't been my experience, so I disagree. I've seen very full rail cars when I've used it. People buying tickets. A huge service to the congested medical center. A great way to move between the med center and downtown. If it hooked into the Galleria (i.e. if politicians hadn't killed that branch) there would even greater ridership.
If the goal were a "coercive transfer of wealth to the lower income people" then it's a pretty poor way of doing that. But you have your little conspiracy theory to keep you warm at night; I won't take that away.
The Red line (before the extension) was easily the 2nd highest travelled light rail line in the country per mile behind only Boston.
There are certain places rail is very useful. Going to the Woodlands is not one of them, at least not with our current density and population. Within Beltway 8, its useful. Inside 610 has the density and 610 to Beltway 8 has such traffic that the buses don't provide good service (even if they can use HOV lanes, they take too long to get there).
Come on rail in Houston is a stupendous boondoggle. Instead of going elevated, underground or exclusive ROW they take up valuable street real estate, causing car-train collisions and much confusion to motorists like me, even after 11 years of this bad joke.
Exactly, the correct strategy would be to instead re-allocate lanes to bus service. Then we could have more service, over more areas, than what we're getting by spending all our capital budget on expensive light rail. Dedicated bus lanes on our thoroughfares are the way to go, and we needed them yesterday.
I would prefer an elevated train, but I'll take what I can get. Imo, they ought to have commuter rail down the center of 288 and the center of I10 because commuter rail is just so much better than buses. It's more comfortable and you can get work done on the train while busses still get hung up in traffic and are bouncy and uncomfortable. It won't happen in my life time, so I would settle for a park and ride out here in Pearland. It's supposed to be happening, but I am not holding my breath as it will be county rather than Metro (we can't join the metro district as we can't raise our sales taxes - we are at the state cap).
Capacity. I noticed visiting Chicagoland this summer that 1 Metra passenger car holds about 2 Metro P&R buses. And you can connect the cars together in tandem to save trips and fuel.
It may not matter in the morning since there are extra buses waiting at the P&R station, but in the afternoon things are different. I observed that the 221 fills up completely at Kinder Morgan from 5:00-6:00 PM. Most people start boarding at Total Plaza and then the rest is filled up at Kinder Morgan. By the time it reaches Jones Hall, it's standing room only or wait for the next bus (might as well walk through the tunnels to Kinder Morgan or Total to catch the bus). Some people are desperate enough to board as standbys in the center aisle the whole way back to Kingsland. The last 229 midday bus at 2:35 PM is almost the same way.
I agree that it is a fact that a commuter rail system would be able to deliver an ultimate capacity greater than what a P&R system would be able to be scaled up to.
Whether that increased capacity is worth the billions in cost to bring commuter rail downtown is an opinion. And in my opinion, the answer is no, especially when there is a lot of room to optimize the P&R system at a fraction of the cost. But reasonable people may disagree and it won't ruin my day.
I've seen very full rail cars when I've used it. People buying tickets. A huge service to the congested medical center. A great way to move between the med center and downtown. If it hooked into the Galleria (i.e. if politicians hadn't killed that branch) there would even greater ridership.
Yes just what we need, spend billions more dollars so more people get free rides on a toy train woo hoo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by houston-nomad
If the goal were a "coercive transfer of wealth to the lower income people" then it's a pretty poor way of doing that. But you have your little conspiracy theory to keep you warm at night; I won't take that away.
Well what a cute metaphor, you win just on that. Actually I have a girlfriend to keep me warm at night, I live near the north loop and she the south loop, so she uses rail to meet me downtown or for events in the Heights when I pick her up at Cavalcade.
Yeah she passes through the med center. One of those crowds that use it and don't pay. And she rarely if ever buys a ticket. When I drop her off at a station I always buy her a ticket if I get out of the car.
She got a citation once, went to court and somehow got off with a much reduced fine. Didn't change her behavior. Would be a major deal to me but if you saw her you would understand why I put up with.
Yes just what we need, spend billions more dollars so more people get free rides on a toy train woo hoo.
Well what a cute metaphor, you win just on that. Actually I have a girlfriend to keep me warm at night, I live near the north loop and she the south loop, so she uses rail to meet me downtown or for events in the Heights when I pick her up at Cavalcade.
Yeah she passes through the med center. One of those crowds that use it and don't pay. And she rarely if ever buys a ticket. When I drop her off at a station I always buy her a ticket if I get out of the car.
She got a citation once, went to court and somehow got off with a much reduced fine. Didn't change her behavior. Would be a major deal to me but if you saw her you would understand why I put up with.
Come on rail in Houston is a stupendous boondoggle. Instead of going elevated, underground or exclusive ROW they take up valuable street real estate, causing car-train collisions and much confusion to motorists like me, even after 11 years of this bad joke. I rode the red line north both ways last week and virtually none of the people were buying tickets. I think besides myself I saw one guy buying a ticket.
But just do understand it: this is a coercive transfer of wealth to the lower income people, great if that is where you are philosophically, enjoying all the waste of 20% seat occupancy with 2 paying riders per mile. Not so great if you appreciate conservation of resources.
This is a huge waste just to get the benefit of a boost to civic pride. And admit it, that is the only widespread benefit, pride. Or maybe avoidance of some kind of civic low esteem, low self image or something.
You can blame the politicians like John Culberson and Tom Delay for that as they blocked funding for the rail and caused Metro to have to pay for the first line by itself. Instead, that money was sent to Dallas and we see the elevated and underground rail they have. Houston dropped the ball in the 80s, when heavy rail was approved by the voters, but Mayor Lanier diverted those funds for rail to sidewalks and other upgrades. Would rather have the rail. Houston is behind so many cities when it comes to giving options. You don't have to be NYC or Chicago to be able to support rail. You do in order to support numerous subway lines, but not a simple hub-and-spoke system like Houston would have had.
Houston would be much better off if the HOV lanes in the freeways (mainly the Katy to Katy, Southwest to Sugar Land, North to IAH/The Woodlands, along the Westpark Tollway to Highway 6, Gulf to Clear Lake, 290 to Jersey Village) were instead heavy rail lines. This was basically the early 80s plan. Instead, we have to drive everywhere. I wouldn't mind taking a train to the airport, or downtown for a Rockets game instead of driving.
I agree that it is a fact that a commuter rail system would be able to deliver an ultimate capacity greater than what a P&R system would be able to be scaled up to.
Whether that increased capacity is worth the billions in cost to bring commuter rail downtown is an opinion. And in my opinion, the answer is no, especially when there is a lot of room to optimize the P&R system at a fraction of the cost. But reasonable people may disagree and it won't ruin my day.
That's also a problem. People look at initial cost, but in the long run they are similar. Buses have more wear and tear, more drivers with different driving styles, far less capacity, may be more flexible in getting to destinations, but not more flexible in the amount of time in actually runs. I am not aware of any buses that run the opposite direction during rush hour. If there is are park and ride buses that go from the energy corridor or westchase into the loop, let me know. I know rail would run both ways.
You can blame the politicians like John Culberson and Tom Delay for that as they blocked funding for the rail and caused Metro to have to pay for the first line by itself. Instead, that money was sent to Dallas and we see the elevated and underground rail they have. Houston dropped the ball in the 80s, when heavy rail was approved by the voters, but Mayor Lanier diverted those funds for rail to sidewalks and other upgrades. Would rather have the rail. Houston is behind so many cities when it comes to giving options. You don't have to be NYC or Chicago to be able to support rail. You do in order to support numerous subway lines, but not a simple hub-and-spoke system like Houston would have had.
Houston would be much better off if the HOV lanes in the freeways (mainly the Katy to Katy, Southwest to Sugar Land, North to IAH/The Woodlands, along the Westpark Tollway to Highway 6, Gulf to Clear Lake, 290 to Jersey Village) were instead heavy rail lines. This was basically the early 80s plan. Instead, we have to drive everywhere. I wouldn't mind taking a train to the airport, or downtown for a Rockets game instead of driving.
Most Compact Metro Areas Nationally:
1 New York/White Plains/Wayne, NY NJ - 203.4
2 San Francisco/San Mateo/Redwood City, CA - 194.3
3 Atlantic City/Hammonton, NJ - 150.4
4 Santa Barbara/Santa Maria/Goleta, CA - 146.6
5 Champaign/Urbana, IL - 145.2
6 Santa Cruz/Watsonville, CA - 145.0
7 Trenton/Ewing, NJ - 144.7
8 Miami/Miami Beach/Kendall, FL - 144.1
9 Springfield, IL 142.2
10 Santa Ana/Anaheim/Irvine, CA - 139.9
Most Sprawling Large Metro Areas Nationally:
182 Houston/Sugar Land/Baytown, TX - 76.7
184 Richmond, VA - 76.4
189 Rochester, NY - 74.5
192 Birmingham-Hoover, AL - 73.6
196 Memphis, TN-MS-AR - 70.8
197 Charlotte/Gastonia-Rock Hill, NC-SC - 70.5
201 Warren/Troy/Farmington Hills, MI - 67.0
215 Riverside-San Bernardino/Ontario, CA - 56.3
217 Nashville/Davidson/Murfreesboro/Franklin, TN - 51.7
220 Atlanta-Sandy Springs/Marietta, GA - 41.0
There's logic to why some cities have large rail systems and why others don't. Its much cheaper and much more efficient to build a rail system in a city with a compact metropolitan area.
I'd love to have a rail system here, but I don't think we will ever have one that goes past 610. It would cost too much to build a rail system large enough to be of much use.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
