Dry stack concrete block to build a garage w/apartment over it? (floor, roof)

[Panks]

I am about to embark on a major project and I would REALLY appreciate some advice

NEED: Basically I need to build a 2 car garage with an apartment over it (900 sqft total for both) so that my parents can move into my house (one floor) and I can have some privacy!

PROBLEM: limited funds!

In the past month I have looked into...

* earth bag houses (that was a great option but %%^%^ Los Angeles doesnt allow it),
* modular / prefab additions or detached garages
* manufactured HUD houses
* used mobile homes
* wood kit barns
*garages kits
* paneled kits (whole panels shipped not just the lumber)
* SIPs (structural insulated panels)
* steel framing with wood infill or SIP
* entire steel buildings (like quonset buildings).
*brick or concrete block
* wood frame construction

CONCLUSION: I was really excited about the earthbag building but LA dept of building squashed that pretty quickly. I've finally realized that I'll never find a perfect method, so I've settled on concrete block for these reasons...

1. I can help build it and save some $$
2. I want to stucco the garage/apartment to match the house so I might as well start with a concrete block base instead of having to put the concrete onto plywood and then 2 coats of stucco over that.
3. I can do the dry stack (mortarless) method of installation
4. I can finish the inside when I have more money but I'll still have a waterproof place to live but if I do wood frame, I have to finish the outside since its started raining.

If I'm making some big errors in my logic please tell me NOW! Also, any tips on concrete block construction, especially dry stack would be greatly appreciated. I'm hoping to hire a mason with experience in drystacking but I dont know that I'll find one around here.


There is a free pamphlet by the US gov. on dry stacking from 1975 called:
Construction With Surface Bonding
U.S. Department of Agriculture,
Agriculture Information Bulletin No. 374

They went crazy when I posted a link last time, so just do a google search if you want to read it.

[drjones96]

Initially I had a "WTH are you talking about?" moment. And a "WTH are you thinking by not mortaring the blocks together?" thought.

But after reading a couple of things it doesn't seem so bad....

[Panks]

LOL! I give myself many WTH am I thinking moments too!

[desertsun41]

No WTF here. I do know you can not do dry stacking for any residential or commercial construction for any habitable structure. This method is for doing block walls as fencing normally used in the south west and that usually limited to 8 courses high.

A guy here called K'ledge might have more insight on this issue.

The cheapest way to build a structure is to pour a slab 4" thick with the perimeter at whatever depth local code calls for, in. Southern Cal. it should be like 12" or so. Buy a modular or factory built shell and drop it on with a crane.

Many other local codes will come into play. Some areas have mnimum size requirements, set backs on your property, height restrictions, occupancy per SF, and some towns/cities restrict what some call mother-in-law suites or multi family or multi habitable structures on the same parcel.

One thing caught my eye you said. You want to help the contractor lay the blocks. I dont know a contractor alive that would let a home owner help them. I personally walked away from jobs because the home owner insisted he help.

I got from your writing that this is a seperate structure. You would have a much easier time doing an additon to your existing home and carefully designing it so the local building officials are not tipped off that you intend to make it a seperate living quarters. You must tell them you are just adding space to what you have.

[Gandalara]

You want to dry stack concrete blocks for a residence.
In earthquake-prone Southern California.


Buy a RV and live in it

[Panks]

desertsun you just took a few years off my life I thought it was ok from reading the Haener block website (they make their blocks in San Diego)...

How easy is it to build without prior experience?
Haener Block has been used extensively for years in California by do-it-yourself home and apartment owners with no prior masonry experience for everything from a barbecue to a room addition.

Approval of Building Codes
The uniform building codes were referenced at all stages of the design and tests were performed by the National Concrete Masonry Association Research and Development Laboratories in Chagrin Falls Ohio.

I sent them an email so I'll let you know if I hear back.

Because of some state law that was passed in 2003, its easier to get approval for an ADU (accessory dwelling unit) than an addition but I might do the addition anyway since I don't need a kitchen. I'm assuming my mom will be cooking

Believe me I would LOVE to get a modular plunked down all ready to go but the cost is REALLY high in Cal. I checked and checked. They are really reasonable back East but somehow out here a stupid modular shack (no garage) is $100sq foot.

At this point I would build with elephant dung if it passed code. I hate going down to the city and waiting to talk to someone for 30 mins then have them say "these are really specific questions...we are here to answer GENERAL questions..if you have questions about your project, you need to make an appointment to talk to plan spec" for $150!! what &%^%$.


Ok, so forget the dry stacking part for now...does anyone see any reason why building a two storey concrete block garage would be a bad idea?

[K'ledgeBldr]

Originally Posted by Panks

How easy is it to build without prior experience?

It's not what you think it is. Haener Block systems still require rebar and poured grout columns and the wall hgt would be restricted- you couldn't do two story-self supporting.
Approval of Building Codes

Approval for some codes. But your two story is probably out. And I'd be real curious about fire codes. If, by chance you could go two story- insulating the upper part (living area) would cost plenty.

Because of some state law that was passed in 2003, its easier to get approval for an ADU (accessory dwelling unit) than an addition but I might do the addition anyway since I don't need a kitchen.

That's good for you (the permit part). But if you are essentially building an apartment above the garage make it a real apartment. It could be rental income in the future.


Ok, so forget the dry stacking part for now...does anyone see any reason why building a two storey concrete block garage would be a bad idea?

The "bad idea" is in the cost. And you said so yourself that there are limited funds (whatever that means). If you built a conventional framed structure (2-car garage with a studio or one bedroom, one bath apt. above) that met all current codes your cost would probably be 50-65k depending on the amount of finish required in the garage area (generally, if you have living area above a garage there must be some type of fire barrier(s). i.e., 5/8" min fire rated d/wall, and or a sprinkler system). Another thing to consider, if it were to become rental property would the garage space be for the renter or the landlord? If it's for the landlord- put the staircase on the exterior (it serves three purposes, one is obvious- the others, fire escape for the upstairs and a smaller footprint= <$$).

And as Gandalara- you got to be looney to want to do that in an earth quake area.

[desertsun41]

Ok I never herad of a Haener block so I went and watched the company video. It was nothing like the dry stacking blocks used to build property line fences in NV and AZ that I thought they might be.

These are supposed to be hurricane and earthquake proof? When the guy fit the blocks he shook them into place and the whole damn wall wiggled. There is a groove for R-bar and the center is hollow yet no mortor is poured into them? If mortor was pumped into the center cavity I would put my stamp of appoval but what I seen I would not trust it. I think I would bet the farm that the code officials would not either despite what the video said.

Modular cost more in California? It figures, everything cost double in California. I have a good idea. Move to a less cosly area. I wish ya luck in your ventures.

[Panks]

Thanks K'ledgeBldr
I knew about the rebar and pouring cement in the middle part but I thought if they allowed it for Haener, they'd allow it for regular blocks.

BTW, I never got an email back from them and their company telephone numbers were very unprofessional. One was a fax and the other was some womans voicemail that didn't even mention Haener...doesn't look promising but I'm not as worried about the dry stacking as I am about the whole concrete block idea. It'll be easier for me to get plans for regular block and mortar construction anyway. My budget is half what you said regular construction would cost which I know is very skimpy but hey even that is a stretch for me right now

Thanks for explaining about the staircase. I didn't know it cost less to build them outside and its a great suggestion to think of potentially renting it out one day That would really change where I put the windows and doors if a tenant was in there.

Now I understand why I've seen plans that are block on the first floor and wood on the second. It didnt make sense before. What do you think of that idea? Doesnt it make sense to build with concrete if you have to out concrete on the building in order to put stucco on? Thats a BIG job that I could be avoiding at least on one floor! Right?

BTW, drystacked. com has a page full of photos for anyone that lives in a normal part of the country

[jcarlilesiu]

I think you have a better oppurtunity to use precast concrete panels for the project than even dry stacked CMU block.

The structure would be built on a concrete slab turned down at the edges to meet code frost line requirements. From there, the panels are set in place and bolted down. Any precast concrete fabricator can make the panels based off of a set of drawings, preferably designed by a professional. From there, the precast panels will be mechanically fastened together. Fenestrations are incorporated into the panel design. Floor and roof construction can utilize metal framing with a lightweight concrete deck. Utilize furing strips and drywall to finish interior spaces in the apartment section and frame walls as required. Insulation can be provided by securing insulation directly to the interior side of the precast panel.

I think this construction type would be much cheaper than masonry. It assembles faster as well, as a crane lifts the pieces in place from the fabricator and fastens them together. You could probably have the entire structure erected in just a few days.

Finishes beyond that are up to you. You can stucco over the precast concrete, or even have the precast concrete colored from the factory.

Just an idea.