Drain Pump for Bar Sink - Need Help (floor, ejector, heat)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
We have about a year old ranch house in WI We have a bar in the lower level walkout with a bar sink and refrigerator. Few questions. Why did the plumbers install a drain pump in our under-sink cabinet and not run the pipes through the floor? We use city water not well water. What they did do is run the pipes through an exterior wall.
Recently we ran the water in the bar sink and the drain pump (Liberty 404 pump) turned on. When we stopped running the water, the pump didn't turn off. We saw no "off" switch so to stop it, we had to unplug it completely. A note: we do not use the bar sink for anything other than water. It has a hot/cold line. So a plumber came in and basically said that no good plumber in WI would ever run the lines through an exterior facing wall. The thing with the pump according to the manufacturer is that there are check valves (I believe it's called that) that can trap the water so it doesn't go back down. That being said, the plumber stated there's a chance that some water maybe got frozen by a check valve and when water was ran perhaps the pump keeps trying to push it out. So our pipes could be frozen.
So do we wait until our pipes potentially burst when it starts to warm up and worry about it every year after or what needs to be done?
Any plumber who makes a blanket state- "no good plumber in WI would ever run lines through an exterior wall..." is not a good plumber. Did it ever occur to him that the plumber who original did the plumbing did what THE CUSTOMER WANTS? Probably not. Did it occur to him that the plumber may have been worthy enough to try and convince the H/O that there could be possible problems down the road; but took precautions to minimize any potential problem? Probably not.
Waste lines can freeze; but the likely hood of having a catastrophic failure are slim due to the fact that wastelines are not under pressure and are vented to the exterior.
The only way to know for sure if the plumbing was done correctly with check valves, insulation, etc. is to open the wall/ceiling.
The usual reason for using a pump in this situation is because the main sewer line is above the level of the basement floor.
Any plumber who makes a blanket state- "no good plumber in WI would ever run lines through an exterior wall..." is not a good plumber. Did it ever occur to him that the plumber who original did the plumbing did what THE CUSTOMER WANTS? Probably not. Did it occur to him that the plumber may have been worthy enough to try and convince the H/O that there could be possible problems down the road; but took precautions to minimize any potential problem? Probably not.
Waste lines can freeze; but the likely hood of having a catastrophic failure are slim due to the fact that wastelines are not under pressure and are vented to the exterior.
The only way to know for sure if the plumbing was done correctly with check valves, insulation, etc. is to open the wall/ceiling.
The usual reason for using a pump in this situation is because the main sewer line is above the level of the basement floor.
We as normal everyday homeowners knew nothing about the plumbing for this and were told nothing regarding it, we good or bad rely on the knowledge of the subcontractors who are working on our house and have to put a certain amount of trust in them. It is an impossibility for an everyday consumer to know everything about what should or shouldn't be done in new home construction. The plumber stated that the lines should have been run underneath the floor. Our neighbors do not have this drain pump installed with their bars on their lower levels. When we questioned the plumber as to why this thing was in our cabinet, he told us this is normal for bar sinks, we, not knowing any better accepted the answer as this was the first house we had with a bar. It wasn't until after this problem occurred did we start questioning the use of this system and found it is not in actuality common in the homes in our area.
I happen to agree with the plumber that came out. Having grown up in Vermont, plumbing was done with interior stacks. Responsibility is shared between the plumber and designer of the house.
The waste line is probably frozen, as you suggested. "Will it burst?" is not an easily answered question. The pressure from ice and expansion is capricious. If a solid ice plug forms at the top of a pipe filled with water, and then the water below freezes, the pipe can burst. If the freezing starts at the bottom, it may not. Consider though that ice floats, so a top blockage is possible.
If ice is the problem, then the area around that pipe will have to be allowed to have more heat in winter or the problem will continue. How that is done is best left to a plumber familiar with the area and local practices.
Regardless of what "should never have been done" the OP now has a situation has diminished their confidence to reliably use their bar when the weather is potentially freezing. The options are frankly not great...
The "gold standard" is to cut a drain pit into the floor of the basement, install an ejector pump and plumb all the lines into the existing stack. If done properly that would easily support a full bathroom with lavatory and tub / shower. The details are available in several posts, here is a thorough documentation of what all is involved -- https://www.handymanhowto.com/finish...throom-part-9/ The costs could easily be several thousand dollars and that frankly seems like overkill for a bar sink...
I suppose the OP could get fancy self-regulating heat tape that is rated for non-metallic pipe, apparently there are controllers that sense the ambient temp and adjust the output -- I'm guessing the whole set-up might be several hundred bucks... http://www.thermon.com/catalog/us_pdf_files/TEP0067.pdf Again, this is stuff designed for things like critical operation of refineries, overkill for washing out some glasses after a Packers game!
There are lots of these "under sink" pump kits -- https://www.zoro.com/sewage-systems-basins/c/7357/ Maybe contact the manufacturer and ask if they have specific cold weather recommendations. My gut says that if the basement is warm enough to walk around barefoot there is no risk of actually freezing the drain pipe, plumber over-reacted. I'm guessing there was nothing "frozen" inside the pump kit, just a sticky float switch, sort of like when the toilet flapper gets hung up -- just jiggle it, or maybe get a solid state sensor instead -- https://www.plumbingsupply.com/elect...mp-switch.html
The odds of drain "bursting" in this sort of situation are really remote -- there is just not enough volume or pressure involved. I might just leave well enough alone, maybe get a leak detector -- https://www.grainger.com/product/ZIRCON-Electronic-Water-Detector-1TJT7?s_pp=false&picUrl=//static.grainger.com/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/1TJT7_AS01?$smthumb$
"The odds of drain "bursting" in this sort of situation are really remote -- there is just not enough volume or pressure involved."
Data point. I use a standard undersink filter casing attached to a hose when I fill my outdoor above ground cistern. Once the cistern is full, the water drains back out of the hose. I use NO shutoffs. Last winter during a cold snap there was water in the body of the casing. which is at least 3/8" thick. The casing burst from the ice that had formed inside. That was with less than a quart of water and 0 pressure. This year, similar situation with new casing - no problem there, but the hose end turnoff on my garden hose (again with 0 pressure) has partly split and leaks.
We are concerned since temperatures here have went to negative 10 or more degrees. I have contacted the manufacturer and am awaiting their response to see if they have any thoughts as well.
One of the pipes is the waste drain pipe. The second one is the vent pipe. The third pipe is the drain from the sink. It should be connected to the home vent system, or have an AAV installed (usually under the sink).
Do you know where the waste pipe terminates? You say it goes outside, does it just dump on the ground?
There are waste pipes in exterior walls on most homes, so that may not be a bad thing.
The fact that the sump kept running may not have anything to do with the piping. It may be something wrong with the sump pump. There might be some debris in the sump box. There could be a problem with the venting.
Did the second plumber fix it, or just bad mouth the original guy? I have a low opinion of someone that starts out by trash talking the first guy.
One of the pipes is the waste drain pipe. The second one is the vent pipe. The third pipe is the drain from the sink. It should be connected to the home vent system, or have an AAV installed (usually under the sink).
Do you know where the waste pipe terminates? You say it goes outside, does it just dump on the ground?
There are waste pipes in exterior walls on most homes, so that may not be a bad thing.
The fact that the sump kept running may not have anything to do with the piping. It may be something wrong with the sump pump. There might be some debris in the sump box. There could be a problem with the venting.
Did the second plumber fix it, or just bad mouth the original guy? I have a low opinion of someone that starts out by trash talking the first guy.
There is no AAV vent. I don't know how to determine if it's connected to the home vent system...
Is there a way for me to tell where the waste pipe terminates? I just know the pipes head into the exterior wall but have no idea where it goes if it goes outside, etc. I don't see any pipes leading out of the house in that area, only on the other side of the house.
It could very well just be the unit. Talking to a Liberty product manager at the manufacturer wasn't helpful so I sent an email with pictures to them so hoping that helps. The person I spoke to could not tell me why the pump would keep running so hope will get better answers with the email.
"The odds of drain "bursting" in this sort of situation are really remote -- there is just not enough volume or pressure involved."
Data point. I use a standard undersink filter casing attached to a hose when I fill my outdoor above ground cistern. Once the cistern is full, the water drains back out of the hose. I use NO shutoffs. Last winter during a cold snap there was water in the body of the casing. which is at least 3/8" thick. The casing burst from the ice that had formed inside. That was with less than a quart of water and 0 pressure. This year, similar situation with new casing - no problem there, but the hose end turnoff on my garden hose (again with 0 pressure) has partly split and leaks.
If you don't understand the difference between a PVC drain line under a sink and a cistern outdoors tied to a street pressure filter housing...
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
