Going 9+ yrs still averaging $21/mo to heating & cooling (insulation, glass, building)
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Location: Central Atlantic Region, though consults worldwide
266 posts, read 450,912 times
Reputation: 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by rrtechno
Ok. Let's get something going that can actually be specifically discussed. Let's just go with this one point.
Our new house is not a conventional stick-frame house. It does not have studs at regular intervals that act as thermal bridges, and I know that it is more efficient than the standard stick frame, It also is a method that I do not need to have any "confidentiality agreement" provided in order to discuss with others.
What methods are you proposing that will deal with the thermal transfer that occurs at the framing points of conventional construction?
Yes, I am very knowledgeable of SIPA, SIP products and a great deal of projects all over the east coast.
I'll add - among other building systems.
SIPS are fantastic, indeed...but: They (SIPS), like other building systems, are only one piece to an overall thermal puzzle. Thermal shunting (often miscalled as thermal bridging) is important too, absolutely. But one does not need two walls to abate shunting problems. Doing so may be diminished with SIPs, or a second wall --heck, adding exterior foam sheeting will lessen thermal shunting better that shunting is handled with SIPs.
I keep saying R is a function of time and heat, which means heat flow is nearly always linear in R systems! How does one incorporate or reconfigure so as to create a non-linear response to heat flow in a manner so as to lessen impact/effect of time is where I trying to guide everyone to understand.
What also is intrinsic with time, especially with R products?
Location: Central Atlantic Region, though consults worldwide
266 posts, read 450,912 times
Reputation: 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrapperL
I learned this trade by starting in the historical district. WE made everything on the jobsite- windows, doors, moulding even some of the hardware. I went from that to working for a retired General who had a fascination about energy efficiency. This was back in the late 60's. We tried a 2x 8 plate with double studs but found the temperature transmission at the plates was still too much. We went to a double wall with 2x 4 studs on the exterior, a sheet of 1/2"polyisocyanurate and then another 2x 4 wall. Both sides had glas insulation and we made the mistake of using poly sheeting for an air barrier. Makes for lots of mold down here. We used another layer of polyisocyanurate on the outside walls with brick over that. We found out the hard way that ants loved the first generation of poly sheeting. The wall cavities then got boric acid blown in the exterior walls. The downside of the double walls was the cost of millwork. Door units were way past expensive for the exterior. Windows returns were huge and we used 1x 10 that we milled into window stool. But you could heat the house with a candle. This was a 2400 sq ft house. That was my first experience into energy efficiency. I'm sure you've heard of Building Science Company. I've been to several of their seminars. They were pretty much the EFL entity. We built one house to their specs and it included a completely sealed attic- zero, and I mean zero ventilation. My personal immediate opinion was the house was going to blow up from our extreme heat here. The attic was just as cool as the house on a 100F+ day. Surprised the heck outa me. But the labor cost was ridiculous. We spent days sealing everything up air tight. While I can see where that works, it's just not cost effective here and I've yet to be able to come up with a design that would lower the costs to where it's feasible.
In regards to A/C. We figured that it took a ton of A/C per 5 and maybe you could stretch it to 600 sq ft. With the EFL building methods we were able to get an easy 1000 sq ft and depending on east/west orientation, as much as 1200 sq ft per ton and still keep the interior temps at 75F on a 100F day. We don't fight cold here. A cold day is 40F. We fight the heat and it's not uncommon for us to have 45 days over 100F and several over 110F. So heating is not an issue in new homes here, cooling is. Using that scale, an 18 SEER unit just doesn't use much electricity when you are putting a 3 ton unit on a 3500sq ft home.
I understand fixed glass windows and I'd love to use them but I can't imagine a house with a failed A/C unit here on a 100F day. There are times when it might take 3-4 days for parts to come in and that just wouldn't work. The windows opening is a must here.
I agree with you in regards to mortgaging the A/C unit but the buyers also are mortgaging the appliances, carpet, paint, and in on most cases the plumbing fixtures. If the house calls for fiberglas tubs, you can throw that in there too. But most buyers never think about that. They just see a house, a payment and a contract to sign. But I do advise most to avoid up grading appliances or carpet as they can do that later when hopefully they are making more money and can pay cash for it. I do suggest 8lb rebond pad that can be reused and enamel tubs instead of glas.
Are there ways to build more efficent homes? I'm sure there is but we've come a long way in just the last 20 years. We see new products all the time, new technologies and new ways of doing things. I don't build the hundreds of houses every year like I did but the ones I do put my name on now are pretty tight and pretty well insulated with radiant barrier decking and my old school 24" soffits. I still use venta strip and ridge vents even though I use radiant barrier decking. I still put garages to the northwest side when possible as that's where our winter weather comes from. And I still build like EFL was certifying the house.
I tried inserting a simple spreadsheet into a response for TampaBull13 the translation did not go well so lets try it again.
Another good one from TrapperL, thank you!
What the above sheet demonstrates is how to take a desired monthly energy budget and reverse engineer the required btu backwards. I don't need anyone out there to say this is other than just a simple snapshot. Heat flow, as a function of time, is linear. If anyone, under any circumstance desires saving money on energy, then heat must be made to a non-linear response.
Well I for one have had enough of this "discussion". Specific questions have been asked and you have only replied with broad abstracts. Maybe that is how your brain works best, but some people have more important things to do than abstracts.
If you can't give more specifics of your thoughts, then I know how the "block" feature works on this forum.
I'm sure there are places where the scientific principals can be discussed and debated. IMO, the House forum is for specific help and information.
Yes, I am very knowledgeable of SIPA, SIP products and a great deal of projects all over the east coast.
I'll add - among other building systems.
SIPS are fantastic, indeed...but: They (SIPS), like other building systems, are only one piece to an overall thermal puzzle. Thermal shunting (often miscalled as thermal bridging) is important too, absolutely. But one does not need two walls to abate shunting problems. Doing so may be diminished with SIPs, or a second wall --heck, adding exterior foam sheeting will lessen thermal shunting better that shunting is handled with SIPs.
I keep saying R is a function of time and heat, which means heat flow is nearly always linear in R systems! How does one incorporate or reconfigure so as to create a non-linear response to heat flow in a manner so as to lessen impact/effect of time is where I trying to guide everyone to understand.
What also is intrinsic with time, especially with R products?
Thanks for the great contribution.
You might want to do some checking before you imply that the terminology used was incorrect. You are not going to impress very many people by implying terminology superiority.
Location: Central Atlantic Region, though consults worldwide
266 posts, read 450,912 times
Reputation: 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by rrtechno
Well I for one have had enough of this "discussion". Specific questions have been asked and you have only replied with broad abstracts. Maybe that is how your brain works best, but some people have more important things to do than abstracts.
If you can't give more specifics of your thoughts, then I know how the "block" feature works on this forum.
I'm sure there are places where the scientific principals can be discussed and debated. IMO, the House forum is for specific help and information.
Sorry you feel that way rrtchno. You are in a quandry about your current project, I understand. If you believe abstract, I have offered only pure science in a thought provoking manner. For instance, I gave you praise for contributing because you are closer than you realize, though not yet combined the pieces. Others, too are close.
There are vital inexpensive ingredients and configurations that must have a basis of understanding where and why each is necessary. Why? People from every climate are reading this and there are three potential configurations. When one understands the basics of heat flow and the involved materials and configuration - only then will the many make every effort to engage these works well into the future. We become an army of serious energy savers effecting the norm. THis is my contribution to society so I'll do it my way, despite naysayers.
What all need to realize: R is inherently limited to the total energy picture. R, heat, and time are linear. Believe me, I get it - all you have ever known is R. Builders and construction in general is very resistannt to change, Architects (not picking) are among those most resistant to new ideas, except the art of the profession.
The linear relationship must be altered to non-linear to deliver superior saving results in an affordable manner, which also means within common construction normal thoichness systems. Yes indeed I know the answer. And I am not the only one. I have submitted this technology to many states energy commissions and code agencies. There are now code entries are recognized by the IBC. There are states considering whether or not to mandate this technology, other states may do so not only for the conservation, but also because the tech delivers other benefits to protect structures. Frustrated? Yea, I get it.
Nevretheless, if I just spit it out - few, if any, will learn anything from the experience. Simply knowing the parts will not in any way infer where or how to use in the multitudes of climates which need to be handled. I have since narrow configurations down to three suitable for the entire globe.
You are already involved with your own project the way you see it. I wish you well. It a good step in the right direction. I wish you the very best luch with your project.
I undeniably believe that which you stated. Your favorite justification seemed to be on the net the easiest thing to be aware of. I say to you, I definitely get annoyed while people consider worries that they just do not know about. You managed to hit the nail upon the top and defined out the whole thing without having side-effects , people can take a signal. Will probably be back to get more.
First of all, I am not in a quandary about our project. It has been thought out and planned very carefully.
I really think you are getting a kick out of all the responses and that you really have nothing concrete to present. If that's what it takes to make you happy, that's fine for you.
If you have presented your information to all these commissions and agencies, why are you withholding it from us. If these technologies are about to be mandated, why are they so secret that you can not let those of us in the process of building in on your secrets so that we can build now, exceeding current codes, so that we will meet the future codes. There is no law that says it is illegal to exceed a building code.
If you really wanted to help people, you would be sharing practical information and not just speaking in "high-brow" terms about altering linear relationships into non-linear ones in order to achieve savings. That is saying nothing.
And just what is a normal thoichness system?
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