Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
"I was about to get serious about schooling towards IT and i saw a post some one had made about this "H1B" thing. Looked around, ask a question, and wow what a mess. Long story short, these immigrant workers come here with low quality education, work extreme hours(apparently not always very productively ether) and for next to nothing, as far as industry standard goes. The mass of them have flooded the IT market and as soon as that is saturated they will move onto something else. While the IT field does have many without degrees, its not necessarily the majority, MANY qualified, certified, degree holding people are out of work because they can be filled with some one who will do their job for half or less...(in the big picture, like with millions upon millions of revenue, how does cutting 4-5 70k IT people help?? and replace them with some one making 20/30k???)"
Basically there might very well be many americans in it, but the problem is many are not willing to relocate. If I am making 60k in san fran it might not be worth it to go to seattle for an extra 10k after moving and all the adjoining hassel. Bill Gates opened up a new microsoft in seattle, could not find workers, people from cali didn't want to move to seatlle, the h1b only lets in under 100k workers in TOTAL, in a nation of 300 million people and more than 100 million jobs that is not even a drop in the bucket.
The end result was that the plant ended up moving to vancouver canada because people in canada are more willing to relocate for their jobs because there are only 2 or 3 major cities that produce good jobs for english speakers anyways.
Another case had bill gates move a plant to romania. The inability to get h1b visas does not help america it hurts america. When companies cannot get foriegn workers to come to usa, they just relocate to those foriegn countries and america loses any benefit of being located next to a business.
"THIS ISN'T INCREASING COMPETITION ITS STIFLING IT. Why would some one in their right mind spend 40k on school to get a job they will earn 30k in for the next five to ten years at least??? Can anyone explain that to me?"
Well the logic would go 30k x 10 years = 300k roi of 40k over 10 years. That is actually not a bad roi its 750% roi in 10 years or 75% a year when the stock market is providing negative returns. also realize that your compensation will likely be higher than this as your pay will go up over the years if you are any good.
"Sooo, whats the solution? school costs come down to meet the needs of the people?? um, no.. not in a capitalistic market, prices will increase so only a smaller few can take said risk.."
get more training if you want higher pay
"Honestly, what are we looking at here? if this continues, which it will, the middle class will continue to dwindle while a select few continue to make absorbent amounts of money until the whole system collapses under its own weight via there not being enough consumers left with the purchasing power to consume.. Yep.. i would say this i a great system indeed."
So allowing less than 100k foreign workers into a nation with more than 100 million jobs is going to ruin america? I don't buy that arguement
"Simple solution? change the immigration laws and start protecting American workers, this isn't the 1900s, we are not the same nation we were 20 years ago, were not even the same as we were 10 years ago even. Yes, we WERE the great nation of opportunity for anyone to come here and make something, but that ship has sailed. When will we start caring about the people here and their future? Since when does the rest of the world come first? These policies literally kill Americans slowly and painfully so that the rich get richer."
Well if we stop the h1 visa program all those companies that you claim are hiring piles of these people will just leave america, which will make even less jobs, america will just lose an entire sector never mind jobs.
"Right, last three paragraphs are mildly related, but i didn't understand Global Labor Arbitrage until now... I was having problems understand how it will effect the white collar but now i see there is a way around everything...[/quote]"
Lets say you are right... speaking of arbitrage... and all the other countries but america allow the free market to decide jobs and wages. The result will be usa will have higher labour prices than all the other countries, and thus will have higher cost products to the point that american workers won't even be able to afford american products putting these american businesses out of business.
I'm not saying allowing foreign workers is great, it is just the least bad solution
Maximum number of H1bs applications approved per year – 65,000
H1B visa validity – 7 years maximum
So in effect there will be a maximum of 455,000 H1bs present at a time in US. WOW! that’s a huge number, when US population is 305 million and counting. Isn’t it?
It is so immature for any of these “highly talented” and “high profile” guys who posted in this thread to say that 455,000 H1bs are ruining the US grad student’s opportunities, US economy and us culture. Shame on you!
Even the number “455,000” is inaccurate. I know lot of people who has H1B living and working in India and use it only for few months a year when they come here to attend meetings or training. I know people who got h1 and came with US dreams and went back to India because of some reason or other. So the actual figures are not even that.
LOL.....It is very disappointing to see that 455,000 are actually ruining the system!!!! LOL !!! Is it really possible? Just think about it before jumping the guns.
Maximum number of H1bs applications approved per year – 65,000
H1B visa validity – 7 years maximum
So in effect there will be a maximum of 455,000 H1bs present at a time in US. WOW! that’s a huge number, when US population is 305 million and counting. Isn’t it?
It is so immature for any of these “highly talented” and “high profile” guys who posted in this thread to say that 455,000 H1bs are ruining the US grad student’s opportunities, US economy and us culture. Shame on you!
Even the number “455,000” is inaccurate. I know lot of people who has H1B living and working in India and use it only for few months a year when they come here to attend meetings or training. I know people who got h1 and came with US dreams and went back to India because of some reason or other. So the actual figures are not even that.
LOL.....It is very disappointing to see that 455,000 are actually ruining the system!!!! LOL !!! Is it really possible? Just think about it before jumping the guns.
OK, this isn't going to be a 'politically correct' post, so excuse me, but you are asking why people feel there are too many H1Bs.
For one, they don't do so because they read statistics, they just simply use their own two eyes to observe.. and they make such 'assumptions', because... well, it cannot be helped.
Why is walking into pretty much any IT office nowadays feels like 70% of the workforce is from India? What happens to all our MIS, Comp Sci grads? I hardly see them anymore on entry level positions, I only see those from India occupying a VAST majority of skilled IT jobs. Back in the 90s the offices were more (how to say it politically correctly... 'balanced'...) yes, we had the youngsters from our American colleges (with engineering, IT, CompSci, Finance, Business and other) degrees doing all the dirty work of entry level jobs. They worked long hours , were paid peanuts and paid their dues. There also was some 'healthy' percentage of H1B workers, very proportionally represented.
I don't know where our grads go nowadays.. Can anyone enlighten me why whenever I walk into an elevator of a building with the IT offices I feel like I am in India. Why whenever I get any technical resumes I am always exclusively presented with the workers from India? I would understand if the mix were... well... more proportionate to the representation of the descendents from India in our general population or at least something like 20% of IT workforce. Recently, I had to help someone interview resources for a position and all the resumes handed to me for analysis were from Indian H1B holders. All of them! Not a single resume from some other source, all came from a couple of 'preferred vendors' and this was upwards of 20 resumes for one position.
Whether it's H1Bs from India or somewhere else, it doesn't really matter. It's not the point here. the point is how do your statistics serve as a justification that one and only group is being disproportionately represented in certain industry where the distribution of resources was more balanced a decade ago.
Location: Prescott Valley,az summer/east valley Az winter
2,061 posts, read 4,135,306 times
Reputation: 8190
And do you have any idea how many of these visas are just overlooked at the end??? they come over but never leave!! Usually change jobs and the visa question iis never asked!
Is that really the case? I work with people from China and India that have these visas. We're all paid the same from what I understand.
Yea they are required to pay the same. I have worked with them also, they aren't making peanuts. They get a fair wage. They get paid around 50-60K. Though, many do work long hours and some work free. However, many get paid OT.
There are some small consulting companies that abuse it though. They will 'say' they are paying the H1B a certain wage, but then take the majority of the money for themselves and pay the H1B less.
In the companies I have worked at, it seems the employees who are in IT are majority white, but the contractors are mixed (Indian, Phillippino, American, Black).
The last place I worked at, the H1Bs all got let go and got replaced by NEW H1Bs. That was weird. But I think they were attempting to move to an offshore model.
As for whether Indians work harder, I think it's a mixed bag. I have worked with an offshore team and other H1Bs. Some are really good, and some suck.
What I don't like is, many of them lie on their resume. They say they have 5 years experience when in reality they have zero or just one year. This isn't fair because the one with '5 year experience' will always beat out the entry level person who could be an American. You can't compete with someone lying about 5 years of experience if you have zero or none.
My entire team at one job, we all got really close, divulged to me that they all lied on their resume. There was about 7 on my team. I was in shock. I was the only one who didn't lie. I actually felt kinda stupid. Because all these years, I had been making a pittance compared to even the H1Bs who were all these years making more than me.
Revisiting this thread, when I moved to silicon valley in 1989, I noticed an interesting phenomenon. White engineers were incredibly smug in their long-established good 'ol boy networks. Others need not apply. "Howdy" was the common greeting around these educated "farmer johns." It was commonly stated that "if I don't like where I'm working for any reason, I'll just go right next door and get a higher paying job." Job-hopping and greed were common among this bunch. The work ethic suffered as well. Where I worked, many engineers spent half the day BSing, goofing off, and playing with Nurf toys. Productivity was slow, quality was low, deadlines rarely met. The emergence of the internet and related technology to utilize it might've emerged sooner had it not been for this type of employee.
This changed in the 90s. Job fairs in the area were suddenly flooded with indians and asians. These companies found out that outsourcing was a better business model, a way to increase production, maximize profits. Cheaper pay, better work ethic, greater prodution. Can't say that I blame them.
Every person has to create their own reality. Versatility is required now. If one avenue closes, find another. It's called LIFE. We live in a country with a segment of people who thought Bush deserved to be reelected. This is an indication that the problems in this country are more far-reaching than the H-1B program.
Revisiting this thread, when I moved to silicon valley in 1989, I noticed an interesting phenomenon. White engineers were incredibly smug in their long-established good 'ol boy networks. Others need not apply. "Howdy" was the common greeting around these educated "farmer johns." It was commonly stated that "if I don't like where I'm working for any reason, I'll just go right next door and get a higher paying job." Job-hopping and greed were common among this bunch. The work ethic suffered as well. Where I worked, many engineers spent half the day BSing, goofing off, and playing with Nurf toys. Productivity was slow, quality was low, deadlines rarely met. The emergence of the internet and related technology to utilize it might've emerged sooner had it not been for this type of employee.
This changed in the 90s. Job fairs in the area were suddenly flooded with indians and asians. These companies found out that outsourcing was a better business model, a way to increase production, maximize profits. Cheaper pay, better work ethic, greater prodution. Can't say that I blame them.
Every person has to create their own reality. Versatility is required now. If one avenue closes, find another. It's called LIFE. We live in a country with a segment of people who thought Bush deserved to be reelected. This is an indication that the problems in this country are more far-reaching than the H-1B program.
1) Electing Bush and decimating the American industry are two unrelated issues.
2) I agree that visas to foreign workers are not the only cause for the demise of the US industry. It's just one more nail in the coffin. There are other factors at work, some even more devastating.
3) Something which most advocates of "change" and "dynamism" forget is that everything made in the US, can be made for less elsewhere. That literally means everything. By that logic we can close down the US economy and go home to watch the game.
4) American high tech industry workers are among the most vulnerable professional groups:
No unions to defend them, no certification needed, no bar examinations to pass. Every high school dropout can become a programmer or IT expert, instantly.
Can you become a practicing lawyer, doctor, teacher, CPA, physiotherapist, dentist etc. etc? Because these professionals took care of their interests, the market cannot be inundated overnight with accountants from China (cheaper and more effective BTW). Why can't you get legal advice for $8.25 an hour? And what about 50,000 policemen from Bangladesh?
Do you see the absurd?
Maximum number of H1bs applications approved per year – 65,000
H1B visa validity – 7 years maximum
So in effect there will be a maximum of 455,000 H1bs present at a time in US. WOW! that’s a huge number, when US population is 305 million and counting. Isn’t it?
It is so immature for any of these “highly talented” and “high profile” guys who posted in this thread to say that 455,000 H1bs are ruining the US grad student’s opportunities, US economy and us culture. Shame on you!
Even the number “455,000” is inaccurate. I know lot of people who has H1B living and working in India and use it only for few months a year when they come here to attend meetings or training. I know people who got h1 and came with US dreams and went back to India because of some reason or other. So the actual figures are not even that.
LOL.....It is very disappointing to see that 455,000 are actually ruining the system!!!! LOL !!! Is it really possible? Just think about it before jumping the guns.
Maximum number of H1bs applications approved per year – 65,000
H1B visa validity – 7 years maximum
So in effect there will be a maximum of 455,000 H1bs present at a time in US. WOW! that’s a huge number, when US population is 305 million and counting. Isn’t it?
It is so immature for any of these “highly talented” and “high profile” guys who posted in this thread to say that 455,000 H1bs are ruining the US grad student’s opportunities, US economy and us culture. Shame on you!
Even the number “455,000” is inaccurate. I know lot of people who has H1B living and working in India and use it only for few months a year when they come here to attend meetings or training. I know people who got h1 and came with US dreams and went back to India because of some reason or other. So the actual figures are not even that.
LOL.....It is very disappointing to see that 455,000 are actually ruining the system!!!! LOL !!! Is it really possible? Just think about it before jumping the guns.
You leave out the L1 visa which is abused much more than the H1b visa program. Most firms source out through the L1 program once the H1b quota is reached. It's also very easy to scam since they typically advertise in the paper for entry-level engineers with very low salaries and at least 5 years of experience. Those $30-40K L1 jobs are always easy to spot. Most foreign contract firms have at least as many L1s as H1bs and typically much more.
There are about 4 million workers in the IT, telephony, and computer industries, and not all of them are technical staff. There are also far less available if you exclude the security-sensitive positions in government contracts. If you look at the number of foreign workers working under the H1b, L1, and other visa programs, there are probably between 400,000 and 600,000 foreign contractors working in the US. It's a very significant part of the the labor force for the industries to which it's targeted.
This changed in the 90s. Job fairs in the area were suddenly flooded with indians and asians. These companies found out that outsourcing was a better business model, a way to increase production, maximize profits. Cheaper pay, better work ethic, greater prodution. Can't say that I blame them.
It might have been so in the very beginning, however, it's not so now. Increased productivity? Do you say 'it takes a village' approach is more efficient and cost effective than having 1-2 people perform the same task? When the market gets 'flooded' as you say, new positions have to be created in order to absorb such flood in cheaper resources. The projects that used to require 2-3 highly skilled resources are now staffed with the entire 'team' where the work is so piecemeal that there is sometimes hardly any coherence. Most of the 'team members' who are assigned smaller and smaller tasks are out of the loop on the big picture and their skills become more and more specialized but their visions are more and more narrow. The language skills of newer and cheaper resources are sometimes so poor (especially if they are physically residing in foreign countries) that it impedes communication. The quality of documentation some of these resources produce is abysmal. I don't see how productivity has improved. In some cases it has, it many it hasn't, it just takes longer, more paperwork, more steps, more procedures and often more time to get the same result.
Yes, I agree, it's not the fault of H1b visa holders or the ever large amounts of those of them willing to work for lower rates. The issue is also with the way Americans started to regard their own work. We are to blame as well. There are many many companies who have taken advantage of the situation and opened doors to multiple vendor companies with whom they signed exclusive contracts. IT industry has become largely overrun by 'middleman', which is what you fail to mention in you post and 'middleman' is concerned only about the bottom line - e.g. staffing as many resources as possible and getting such resources at the lowest possible rate. Sometimes vendor/recruiter would throw in free resources just so that they could train on a job. You might guess that such resources are not our American college grads. Often resources with fake experience of skill set that is largely exaggerated are getting in before any American who has better experience gets a chance to get a foot in the door. Even big consulting companies started hiring H1Bs in larger numbers whereas before in earlier 90s they would aggressively recruit at colleges for the vast majority of their entry level workforce. It's simply very hard for someone starting out and without appropriate connections to set the foot in the door.
Why was such over-flooding of resources and 'it takes a village' approach advantageous and embraced by American IT workers? It's because it allows them easier transition into management positions. The 'senior programmers' of yesterday have all generously padded the middle management layer and let it grow out of proportion. I'd say probably we have just as many 'managers' as we do those who actually do any hands-on work. The more people you have reporting to you the higher your chances of making yourself more important, visible, getting more budget allocated and getting higher chances of climbing that corporate ladder. So, many American managers embraced the flood of cheaper foreign workers to 'pad' their teams.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexus
Every person has to create their own reality. Versatility is required now. If one avenue closes, find another. It's called LIFE. We live in a country with a segment of people who thought Bush deserved to be reelected. This is an indication that the problems in this country are more far-reaching than the H-1B program.
Versatility won't get you places without connections. Seriously. If you haven't built such connections in the past, it will be very very tough for you to compete with those who are coming in willing to take lower rates and are sailing in under the umbrella of the 'preferred vendors'. The line is just much longer now. You are also forgetting that the foreign resources are also starting to get more prevalence in the management layer as well and often are in charge of hiring decisions. Good luck if you are not the 'right nationality', not willing to be a cheap contractor but want a permanent job and starting from scratch.
You can be as versatile as you want, but you still live in the US, pay US taxes, experience US cost of living, have to send your kids to US schools and colleges paying US prices, dealing with US messed up healthcare industry, etc, etc. It's not like you are trying to collect wages that would go a long way in whatever country you are going back to. You can't compete with those who can afford to live on a certain wage when you cannot.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
This is an indication that the problems in this country are more far-reaching than the H-1B program.
