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Originally Posted by mimimomx3 Burquas belong in Muslim countries. Can French women living in Iraq or Iran wear miniskirts? Of course not....they'd be stoned. Why can't France have the same laws? Why can't France have dress police like Iran does?
Thats a rediculous statement. Iraq & Iran are anything but free societies. Unless you are advocating killing people for dress offenses I dont think you gave much thought to your response.
You could have watched the BBC and CNN, and gotten two versions. I'm telling you that in any country that has news sources from several different countries will have alternatives in which viewers at least have a chance of finding out there is another version, besides the official version. How am I failing to express this to you?
You get all your news from one country, you see no alternative versions. (USA nearly the only example.) You get news from several different countries, you see alternative versions, and accept the one you trust. ( All other countries fall into this category.)
Is this going over everybody's heads?
Thanks for the reply. OK, I failed to address your angle. You do not see alternative news sources so Americans can have a broader view of the world.
I believe we do. The problem is that people do tend to think this way regardless of their political/economic/social preferences.
I often hear the conservatives say the liberals are the media favorites and they do not have a balanced view. The liberals are pushing for the Fairness Doctrine because they feel they do not have an equal voice on radio as the consevatives do.
You can go on and on on this issue. My view? You do have so many alternative sources out there. You can find it on TV, radio, newpapers, magazines, etc. You will find out a source to just about any political inclinations. Go to Barnes and Noble or Borders and you will find out the variety of magazines with a wide variety of political agendas. Heck, go to their shelves and you will find writers that suit your political likings. The radio, You can hear Colmes just as you can hear Hannity or Rush or whatever.
MSNBC has their general agenda as CNN does and Fox does.
All do show the news in a way that does fit their political preferences.
However, I will put that to the side and for the sake of argument I will say the news here in the States is how you claim it to be.
OK, so not talk about the media and how it can be fixed. After all reality is that the masses CAN BE MANIPULATED by the media anywhere in the world. History can attest to that.
Now, why is it important that if that is the case you have to simply go ahead and demean, bash, condescending, etc. to Americans?
Example: Here the issue is about the French on the burka issue? Heck, just let us know if you agree or disagree on what they are doing. The issue is here not in the states. State your philosophical view whether you agree or disagree. No, you make it a point to say "Americans this or that".
You are an American. Work with us. If we are doing something wrong, tell us but not tear us down. You are my fellow American and I would not agree anyone putting you down and just as you put Americans down and I am not standing up for them I would do the same because you are one also. There is a difference between distructive and constructive criticism. You go even beyond distructive, you seem to cruzade to step on your own people as you cruzade to make us look worse than dirt.
I exort you to join us and let us know how we can become better as a society wherever you see fit.
If you wonder how come many on different threads do come across as rude to you, partly is because of how you talk down on a lot of people. I do not agree with some of their reactions but I understand that human nature is to react to someone that is pretty much all the time putting people down.
I do not know so maybe I should ask you, is your intent to keep putting people down?
No, I am not thin skinned if you wonder. I can assure you I can take it. Thirty one years in the Army has really thikenned my skin. The point is your approach to your fellow Americans I do not agree.
To say the least I am taking the time to point that out to you. I owe that to you and our country to make it better.
Thats a rediculous statement. Iraq & Iran are anything but free societies. Unless you are advocating killing people for dress offenses I dont think you gave much thought to your response.
To me there is a difference of societal norms and religious lifestyles.
Bikinis and burkas fall on different issues.
Bikinis is simply a norm that is accepted in some societies and not on others as nudity standards do vary in countries also.
However, to me the point is the freedom to live your religious moral standards.
So people may think the burkas as a weird or demeaning to women. That is a personal choice and if a woman selects to live a style where she agrees a man is above her, let her. That is between her and the way she believes in her God.
Now, I have not problem with some type of limitation when in some form society is affected. Show her face for Identification? I can see that. Does she need to show her face while teaching? I believe it is an important aspect of teaching. Does she need to show her face while passing some security area? By all means she should.
However, to demand on her to show her face while going shopping? Why?! Because you do not like it? Well, too bad. She is not trying to impose some social norm. She just want to live a religious life she has decided to live. That is what I believe we all believe, freedom to choose how people want to worship God. If you want to impose otherwise on muslims you are saying "I believe in freedom of worship as long as it applies to me, others? No way!". To me that is what if boild down to.
Now, if she is mistreated or abused by a husband and physically forced to against her will, that is another story and I have no problem the law protecting her if she want protection.
Regardless of what Iran, Iraq, or any other country does, the point is what France is doing as if we agree with that approach. Because Iran does something in their country does not mean muslims in France have to feel some type of retaliation for that.
Thats a rediculous statement. Iraq & Iran are anything but free societies. Unless you are advocating killing people for dress offenses I dont think you gave much thought to your response.
You are an idiot. My point is of course, that when Iraq and Iran let people dress anyway they want to (which of course will never happen) then France can do the same. All countries have their own sovereignity. France has a perfect right to decide what is acceptable and what isn't- like Iraq and Iran do.
Regardless of what Iran, Iraq, or any other country does, the point is what France is doing as if we agree with that approach. Because Iran does something in their country does not mean muslims in France have to feel some type of retaliation for that.
You have a great day.
El Amigo
It's not a question of retaliation. It's a question of a country following what it's societal standards dictate. France has always been an open country. If you want to wear a burka and be a man's slave, there are plenty of countries where you can do that. France isn't one of them, apparently.
Burquas belong in Muslim countries. Can French women living in Iraq or Iran wear miniskirts? Of course not....they'd be stoned. Why can't France have the same laws? Why can't France have dress police like Iran does?
You mean, Why don't the French stone women in Burqas?
El Amigo, I am very careful in my personal life to not "put people down". However, if a person chooses to try to influence a group (such as this forum) with arguments that in my opinion are factually unsupportable, I have a right to address the validity of the argument, which is not the same as demeaning the person who made it.
As for Americans in general, there are attributes that pervade out entire social fabric in this country that I think are fundamentally destructive to ourselves. I do not wish to see America destroyed. There is little one can do to keep an entire nation from going down the crapper, which is where I fear my nation is going. What little I can do is to try to present logical and well-formed analysis of why we are failing as a nation, in hopes that others will see what I believe is reason.
If you wish to dispute my position that Americans consent to being systematically misled by our media, you are welcome to present arguments to that effect. I do not take them as personal affronts, provided they are based on observable and verifiable data.
It's not a question of retaliation. It's a question of a country following what it's societal standards dictate. France has always been an open country. If you want to wear a burka and be a man's slave, there are plenty of countries where you can do that. France isn't one of them, apparently.
We differ on this one then. If a woman believes she is subservient for religious reasons, I believe the state is not there to enforce otherwise, UNLESS, as I stated above that man is physically forcing her to follow those precepts and is abusing her. That is different.
However, there is also the interpretation of what slave means.
A slave generally has no choice is legally a property of somebody.
If a woman believes she is to cook and serve her husband because that is who she truly believes, that is her given right. It would be upsetting if any of my daughters would believe that but if they would go ahead and on their own free will want to submit to that, I just would have to respect that.
To some degree you are mingling slavery to free choice because it seems that that choice does not meet your societal standard and that has nothing to do with religious freedom by choice.
As far as retaliation, in some cases it is and many people will not accept that part. They will bring up other reason when the ulterior motive can be simply islamophobia. Many people will not admit to that. It is not any different other ethnic, religous, racial groups have gone through in other societies and countries.
You have a great day.
El Amigo
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