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I'd be fine to rid our language of the word "gender" altogether (as it no longer has clear meaning), separate restrooms, sports teams, etc, by biological sex, and remove the social stigmas of what masculinity and femininity look like. Hopefully those things (especially the last) would eliminate the pressure some people feel to "fit in," to the point of hormonally and surgically altering their body (often leaving them sterile and unable to function sexually, in addition to a host of other health issues).
Truly, this might be the middle ground that we're moving toward as a society. Today is the Transgender Day of Visibility, and a coworker of mine who identifies as nonbinary is having an informational table in the lobby of our workplace. Trans doesn't necessarily means that someone's end game is surgery and full transition--a lot of people just feel comfortable picking and choosing the gender presentation (or nonpresentation) that makes sense to them outside of "men do this, and women do that."
It also goes hand in hand with many of the terms for sexuality, which as we've discussed, isn't the same thing as gender, but people are also more comfortable referring to themselves as asexual, aromantic, demisexual, etc. outside of the gay-straight spectrum.
Yeah, IMO the only way that society realistically moves forward with all of this, and resolves conflicts, is if we really focus and double down on the notion that your sex is a biological, physical, objective fact of life and of your mammal body, that you can't just identify as or not, as that is nonsensical. You are male or you are female, and no one chooses this fact.
And while doing that, concede the notion of gender, as being whatever someone wants it to be in their head, like "race". So gender would become a subjective concept, and everyone would have their own personal realities about it, I guess. And trans gender would just mean that you identify and live as the gender that is the opposite of your sex.
That's the only middle ground/compromise that I can see. Because then it's just a matter of changing the wording, where there's conflict. Like, this is a league for females. We're not saying that you're not a woman, or commenting on that at all. We're saying that this competition is for humans of the female biological sex. It's a physical distinction, not cultural.
And likewise, the restrooms and locker rooms, would need to be specific with the difference with those terms/concepts. If it's a Women's room, then that would include anyone who identifies as a woman. If it's a Female room only, then that would exclude trans women, as a trans woman is by definition a male. And again, it's not saying they're not a woman.
I don't know if even that kind of compromise is even possible, but that's about the best I can come up with, in terms of at least trying to address these various social conflicts that have been arising with all of this.
I have no idea why "gender" (the new definition) has become such a huge deal. We don't concern ourselves with people's other personality traits, and create whole new categories for them. We don't let people choose their restrooms, sports teams, or pronouns based on whether they are introverted, nature-loving, philosophizing, clean freaks. Why do we now let people choose restrooms, sports teams, and pronouns based on how they like to dress, wear their hair, and "feel" in terms of femininity/masculinity?
Very simple, the agenda is to disrupt organized society. There is no constructive or rational purpose. If you ask them they'll give you some rhetoric about stigmatizing or marginalizing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fleetiebelle
Today is the Transgender Day of Visibility, and a coworker of mine who identifies as nonbinary is having an informational table in the lobby of our workplace.
It is a new way of thinking. In a few ways it makes sense and other large ways nonsense.
- FACTS: men can't have babies.
- It is extremely rare for a man to have full gender reassignment surgery to become a woman, get pregnant and have a baby ("1" positive case).
- It is also extremely rare to impossible for a transwomen; female to male surgery to generate sperm from their new genital.
But with the U.S. creative liberal thinking therapists/psychiatrists you can switch your sex "in your mind". It won't stop there. It will move on to changing your species too.
My feeling is some transgender men do deserve to use the ladies restroom while the obvious man with a wig, makeup and a dress do not.
Even worse is allowing transsexual/transgender men to compete in women's sports.
Brazil has a huge transgender population and they do not allow trans men to compete in women's sports. No country in So. America does. They know and uphold this law because their studies and tests proved transsexual men (no matter how long they have been on female drugs) have an unfair advantage competing in women's sports. Only the outlying U.S. allows it. Whenever college-aged sports females or moms speak up they get shut down when pro gays label them racists or discriminating. It's really kind of sick they're taking away women's rights, again.
If the creative psychiatrists already consider them a "third gender" then the third gender needs to compete against their own, right?
The universities are so wrong.
Why people are quick to accept non-sense or unicorn scenarios is beyond me. The country is getting weirder and weirder.
Even worse is allowing transsexual/transgender men to compete in women's sports.
Brazil has a huge transgender population and they do not allow trans men to compete in women's sports. No country in So. America does. They know and uphold this law because their studies and tests proved transsexual men (no matter how long they have been on female drugs) have an unfair advantage competing in women's sports. Only the outlying U.S. allows it. Whenever college-aged sports females or moms speak up they get shut down when pro gays label them racists or discriminating. It's really kind of sick they're taking away women's rights, again.
If the creative psychiatrists already consider them a "third gender" then the third gender needs to compete against their own, right?
The universities are so wrong.
.
It's funny to me that people always bring up women's sports in conversations about trans issues, especially when some individuals never cared about ethics in women's sports outside of the trans question. These are not people who were watching the LPGA or WNBA or had a strong opinion when the US Women's soccer team was fighting for pay equity. But somehow when it's crudely about "a man in a dress" then it's a catastrophe. And no one ever talks about trans men in sports or elsewhere. Is it as much of a danger and a betrayal to have trans men in male spaces?
It's funny to me that people always bring up women's sports in conversations about trans issues, especially when some individuals never cared about ethics in women's sports outside of the trans question. These are not people who were watching the LPGA or WNBA or had a strong opinion when the US Women's soccer team was fighting for pay equity. But somehow when it's crudely about "a man in a dress" then it's a catastrophe. And no one ever talks about trans men in sports or elsewhere. Is it as much of a danger and a betrayal to have trans men in male spaces?
Just because people aren't regular spectators doesn't mean they don't believe in women's sports. And the Ladies Tennis matches are pretty widely watched.
Yeah, IMO the only way that society realistically moves forward with all of this, and resolves conflicts, is if we really focus and double down on the notion that your sex is a biological, physical, objective fact of life and of your mammal body, that you can't just identify as or not, as that is nonsensical. You are male or you are female, and no one chooses this fact.
And while doing that, concede the notion of gender, as being whatever someone wants it to be in their head, like "race". So gender would become a subjective concept, and everyone would have their own personal realities about it, I guess. And trans gender would just mean that you identify and live as the gender that is the opposite of your sex.
That's the only middle ground/compromise that I can see. Because then it's just a matter of changing the wording, where there's conflict. Like, this is a league for females. We're not saying that you're not a woman, or commenting on that at all. We're saying that this competition is for humans of the female biological sex. It's a physical distinction, not cultural.
And likewise, the restrooms and locker rooms, would need to be specific with the difference with those terms/concepts. If it's a Women's room, then that would include anyone who identifies as a woman. If it's a Female room only, then that would exclude trans women, as a trans woman is by definition a male. And again, it's not saying they're not a woman.
I don't know if even that kind of compromise is even possible, but that's about the best I can come up with, in terms of at least trying to address these various social conflicts that have been arising with all of this.
All of this makes perfect sense to me. I don't love that the word "woman" has been hijacked, but if we can at least keep the word "female" as the factual, biological term that has nothing to do with feelings, then at least there's that.
The fact that "The Powers That Be" are not doing the simple, obvious solutions that you suggested, tells me they want to keep things muddy and divided and crazy.
All of this makes perfect sense to me. I don't love that the word "woman" has been hijacked, but if we can at least keep the word "female" as the factual, biological term that has nothing to do with feelings, then at least there's that.
I don't like that either. I am a liberal type person in my views, and not a conservative, but when I hear the phrase "people with uteruses...", because they can't or won't say "women", I just roll my damn eyes.
And what's so ridiculous is that it's in mainstream scientific journals, and of course academia. But, like a mainstream, respected journal of medicine, or science journal, in 2023, has to use all that inclusive language stuff, and they can't associate women with female anymore.
Because... "woke". Because political correctness, because god forbid someone could be "offended".
It's all just dumb, IMO. And I'd like to think I'd still think so even if I was trans gender or whatever. There should be no controversy or harm in being able to make a general statement about women, using the term women, when discussing pregnancy or whatever.
It's funny to me that people always bring up women's sports in conversations about trans issues, especially when some individuals never cared about ethics in women's sports outside of the trans question. These are not people who were watching the LPGA or WNBA or had a strong opinion when the US Women's soccer team was fighting for pay equity. But somehow when it's crudely about "a man in a dress" then it's a catastrophe. And no one ever talks about trans men in sports or elsewhere. Is it as much of a danger and a betrayal to have trans men in male spaces?
I've been a player and coach in Serena's sport for 35 years.
I've been a spectator of MMA men and women.
I've been a spectator of Olympic swimming & track events (men and women) for probably the same period.
Lia Thompson (aka William Thomas) is an absolute shame and embarassment for a college to allow a man to compete in women's division.
"The study indicated that even 14 years after transitioning, transgender women were, on average, 20 percent stronger and had 20 percent greater heart and lung capacity than females." https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.co...than%20females.
I believe transpeople need their own division just like Special Olympics have theirs. This will protect women's rights.
I have nothing against gays or transpeople. I've worked with gays since I was a teen. I have a cousin, female to male trans. who had full surgery and has bigger arm muscles than me. Yet he's estranged by his own choice and assumptions. I'm simply against the unfair advantage a transwoman has against natural born woman in sports.
I don't care about or watch golf (men or women). The WNBA has become more interesting as their skills have improved but it's still a non-watch sport for me just as is any male college or HS sport. Why? Most are never as good when they get to the pros or can't make the pros. If I'm going to watch sports it won't be on amateurs.
Since LGBT's consider transpeople a third gender then why not a separate division? This extra gander choice is now on some employment applications because.... wait.......wait... they understand there's a difference.
What happened to the equality narrative?
U.S. colleges need to listen to science and not the minds of a few psychiatrists or selfish LGBT activist groups.
We have to trust science. Trust biology. Trust muscle mass. Trust a man's lung and heart capacity.
Hello, all. Just interested in a calm and civil discourse around this topic, if that's possible these days. I haven't decided my own opinion on this, so I'm just looking to be convinced by rational arguments.
Is gender a social concept, distinct from the biological concept of sex? Or is it just a synonym for biological sex?
Meaning, if this framework is accepted as valid, then sex would be referring to the concept that's assigned and binary and biological and physical- in terms of male/female. So, you can't identify as the opposite sex.
And gender, within that framework, would be the more social-realm type of concept of being a man/woman/boy/girl, in terms of identity/behavior/roles in society, etc.
I don't know my opinion on this, so I'd like to hear some arguments. Let's be respectful and descriptive in our arguments and avoid snarky one-liners and such. (You have plenty of threads for that in the Politics forum.)
Thanks!
"Gender" is a word. That's all. It refers to male-female dichotomy in a larger sense beyond biological. It's a layman's term for that applies (as much as I've seen) only to human beings.
All the cultural stuff is not biological. It's cultural. Animals don't use clothes, but humans do. So, we can have these discussions about "gender norms" between ourselves. Social norms too, are cultural not biological. Do all rock guitarists have to be males? Not anymore. Do all ballerinas have to be females? Not anymore. Do marriages have to be "cisgender"? Not anymore, at least in many countries.
Some gender norms seem to be universal across humanity as the ancient baseline through all history. There have always been outliers and people and societies who marched to a different drumbeat. And the reaction to them has been varied across the spectrum as well. Hostility, acceptance... all of it.
My sense is the West will ultimately not survive it's experiment with the "new" reality. It's the boredom of excess setting in. The corruption of wealth and leisure. Something's gotta give.
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