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Ditto. And this is why NCs cities are far more impoverished, violent and inequitable than VAs. Very big noticeable difference.
Nc pales to VA.
None of what he said has anything to do with poverty, violence, and inequality. Let's not go all the way to the other extreme.
NC has been extremely successful in creating and luring higher wage jobs and producing start-ups without the benefit of proximity to the nation's capital. Both NC and VA have their impoverished cities that were dependent on legacy industries and have been left behind, but NC has more of them as well as more cities that have weathered that economic turbulence a lot better. The statewide dynamics of both states are just different but it's a pretty huge stretch to say NC pales to VA. Considering where both states started out and the geographic advantages VA has, the progress NC has made over the past century has been very impressive.
Yep. Those cities have become so "unlivable" because they've been extremely successful when it comes to job creation and innovation, but federal policy in the U.S. revolves around and caters to single-family residential which has created a real housing crunch in places that are already geographically constrained. That's why that standard conservative talking point is mainly restricted to West Coast cities. Boston is doing much better by comparison without those same issues (at least to the same extent) and is every bit as progressive.
Yes it's very shameless partisan revisionism. We get these libertarian types moving here that talk about the horrors of "commiefornia" and "taxachussetts". If a progressive city does well in the sunbelt like Austin, well clearly it's the state government they'll credit. Of course the republican governors and big city mayors the northeast keeps electing would never get blame for any population losses by contrast. And red states that are dying like Kansas and Ohio, or blue states that are doing well like CO and OR... all fake news of course. Only things that fit the narrative.
We live in NC (where I was raised, Charlotte area) and lived a year in MA (where my wife was raised, Boston area). We both GREATLY prefer NC to MA. Buying Power (average income vs. cost of living) is light years better in NC than MA. You can live much better on less. The cost-to-benefit ratio taxwise on services is also much better, trust me. MA has more than its share of strip malls. Even on the Cape. Hyannis has some of the most of any town its size I've ever been to. NC to VA? We love both, but prefer NC. "Progressiveness" (in the literal definition, not political) destroys cost of living and the social fabric due to intolerance towards views not liberal. One only needs to see what's happening now on the West Coast and other very Liberal areas to see the effects. As Independents, my wife and I have found that "Progressives" are much more resistant to new ideas and refuse to accept that much of the platform that they blindly cling to has failed miserably in the real World. The cities and metros with the highest costs of living, worst buying power, highest rates of homelessness, worst social unrest, tent cities, open drug use, highest crime rates, etc. have been governed by the Left for decades, with things only getting worse. These are unarguable facts. So, if you do believe that this political platform creates a high quality of life even though statistical evidence and observation prove otherwise, not meaning to be unkind, it'd probably be a better idea to go to VA where that platform is well accepted. It just isn't fair or logical to flee a screwed up area, go to a new area with the same mindset that messed your previous area, screw up the new area, then complain that natives are "backward" and "hate newcomers" when you ruin their QOL. Please don't think I'm being mean, even though it may come across that way. I just don't want NC to loss its incredible QOL over failed political narratives that have been proven to be destructive for decades. Nevertheless, good luck wherever you go.
Well, perhaps "progressive" was the wrong choice of words. I think I did say progressive not in a political way, and that I am not a liberal, I am an independent.
Anyway, what I meant by progressive is being open to change. That if there is a traffic problem, maybe light rail isn't such a crazy idea. And if citizens are clamoring for ways to stay healthy, maybe putting bike paths in isn't so radical either. If there's a lot of pollution, maybe exploring sources of clean energy, and maybe taking a look at protection of wetlands vs filling them in so more houses can be built. And maybe, just maybe, a health care system like MA has works. That's all I'm saying. Be open to ideas. Believe in science and innovation.
Like Boston or not, it has some of the best educational institutions and health care institutions in the world, and the 2nd best public transit system in the country, plus only 3% of the population is medically uninsured, so it must be doing something right.
I don't really know what you mean when you say a "mindset that messed up your previous area", or that I could "screw up a new area" just by moving there. I'm not in politics, I'm not the one making the decisions that screw things up. I am just trying to go about my life like most people. It's that attitude that I want to escape. Heck, us northerners who had nothing to do with it, are still being blamed for the Civil War.
My first week here, I went to the DMV to get my license. As I presented my paperwork to the clerk she noted that I was from "up north". I told her what a beautiful area I thought it was and she looked at me and said "it was until all you northerners came here and ruined it". Well, I didn't ruin it. If it's been ruined by out of control building with zero zoning that's the developer's fault, not mind, or the town planners who allow this to go on, not mine. And secondlly it isn't just northerners moving to the south.
Yes it's very shameless partisan revisionism. We get these libertarian types moving here that talk about the horrors of "commiefornia" and "taxachussetts". If a progressive city does well in the sunbelt like Austin, well clearly it's the state government they'll credit. Of course the republican governors and big city mayors the northeast keeps electing would never get blame for any population losses by contrast. And red states that are dying like Kansas and Ohio, or blue states that are doing well like CO and OR... all fake news of course. Only things that fit the narrative.
You just can't have an intellectually honest conversation with people like that. Not all liberals/progressives are in agreement with policies adopted by local and state governments in response to the problems created by the success of these places (Bill Maher is probably the most prominent example), but too many folks on the other side of the aisle won't even acknowledge their overwhelming success in creating as much economic opportunity as they have--and they are supposedly the pro-capitalist faction. It lays bare the hypocrisy. Not to mention the fact that a crap ton of transplants to the Sunbelt are libertarian Republicans and the reason why the same issues will eventually pop up in the likes of the Triangle and metro Charlotte isn't because newcomers are "voting for the same failed policies that ruined the places they left," but because of national economic and housing policies where the combined downsides simply haven't manifested on a large scale yet. But it certainly will when high demand clashes with critically constrained supply because so-called free-market types are also very pro-government regulation when it comes to preserving single-family home zoning.
Well, perhaps "progressive" was the wrong choice of words. Because this completely not what I am talking about. I think I did say progressive NOT in a political way, and that I am NOT a liberal.
I noticed that as well. That poster is a conservative that votes Republican merely posing as an unbiased unaffiliated independent. It was clear that the term "progressive" triggered them after which they proceeded to ascend to their soapbox and give you a nice talking to.
Quote:
But anyway, what I meant by progressive is being open to change. That if there is a traffic problem, maybe light rail isn't such a crazy idea. And if citizens are clamoring for ways to stay healthy, maybe putting bike paths in isn't so radical either. If there's a lot of pollution, maybe exploring sources of clean energy, and maybe taking a look at protection of wetlands vs filling them in so more houses can be built. That's all I'm saying. Be open to ideas. Believe in science and innovation.
Like Boston or not, it has some of the best educational institutions and health care institutions in the world, and the 2nd best public transit system in the country, plus only 3% of the population is medically uninsured, so it must be doing something right.
I don't really know what you mean when you say a "mindset that messed up your previous area", or that I could "screw up a new area" just by moving there. I'm not in politics, I'm not the one making the decisions that screw things up. I am just trying to go about my life like most people. It's that attitude that I want to escape.
My first week here, I went to the DMV to get my license. As I presented my paperwork to the clerk she noted that I was from "up north". I told her what a beautiful area I thought it was and she looked at me and said "it was until all you northerners came here and ruined it". I didn't ruin it. If it's been ruined by out of control building with shi**y zoning that's the developer's fault, not mind, or the town planners who allow this to go on, not mine.
Unfortunately your common-sense perspective is becoming even more and more rare. It's possible you'd be better served by looking at exurban/rural Maryland or Delaware.
I noticed that as well. That poster is a conservative that votes Republican merely posing as an unbiased unaffiliated independent. It was clear that the term "progressive" triggered them after which they proceeded to ascend to their soapbox and give you a nice talking to.
Unfortunately your common-sense perspective is becoming even more and more rare. It's possible you'd be better served by looking at exurban/rural Maryland or Delaware.
Thank you for your feedback. We haven't ruled out MD or DE but I know MD is more expensive than VA. Not sure about DE, a state I know very little about.
Do you have any suggestion for towns in either state?
IMO, a big advantage of NoVA/MD vs. NC is that the mountains and coast are much closer together: the Appalachians are pulled east, and the Chesapeake Bay brings the ocean west.
What did you think of Staunton, VA? 24,000 residents, not far west of Charlottesville, charming downtown and annual Shakespeare festival. I've yet to spend the night there, but a colleague has been remote-working from there for years and she's effusive with praise for it.
Other thoughts of smaller towns to investigate:
Warrenton, VA
Ashland, VA
Mount Airy, MD
Cambridge, MD (Eastern Shore)
Milford, DE
Culpeper, VA was mentioned upthread
As someone pointed out, "towns" is not as specific a way to think about places south of the Mason-Dixon (and especially Virginia!), since counties are the principal unit of government here. Town boundaries here tend to be fairly narrowly drawn, and many towns aren't even incorporated. Point is, they're not entirely comparable.
The payoff for further away mountains and coasts is that you get better mountains and coasts. The beaches below Cape Hatteras are significantly warmer than beaches above it, and less brown from estuaries draining into them.
With the exception of the Mt Rogers range which is right near the NC border, VA's mountains top out at 4000'. NC has 40+ peaks above 6000' and hundreds above 5000'.
The payoff for further away mountains and coasts is that you get better mountains and coasts. The beaches below Cape Hatteras are significantly warmer than beaches above it, and less brown from estuaries draining into them.
With the exception of the Mt Rogers range which is right near the NC border, VA's mountains top out at 4000'. NC has 40+ peaks above 6000' and hundreds above 5000'.
Disagree a bit. Great Smoky Mountains National Park is one of the most beautiful of the Appalachian parks (as are the nearby state park), but measuring it solely off height isn't a good barometer.
For hikers, topographic prominence is a much better indicator of beauty/awe/amazement. What's more impressive: the City of Alma, CO (flat as a pancake but at 10,100 feet above sea level) or Mount Mitchell at 6,700' above sea level. Certainly the latter.
What makes Virginia's mountains so special is the valley. It creates better prominence. Virginia has 100 mountains with over 500 meters of prominence, more than North Carolina (82). The other unique aspect is the differences between them. The Blue Ridge Mountains, the Dolly Sods, Canaan Valley, New River Gorge, and the West Virginia Highlands are all different in appearance, so living in Virginia gives you far more diversity within daytrip range:
If you look at North Carolina, all the mountains are similar in form, albeit taller. Driving from Charleston, WV to Staunton, VA gives you a far more unique landscape.
Also, the Appalachian Trail is longest in Virginia, so much so that there's a term "Virginia Blues" which comes from the fact that you will spend a month walking through Virginia's mountains before leaving it. North Carolina has 96 miles of the AT. Virginia has 550(!).
And all along the trail are small colonial towns like Charlottesville, Staunton, Roanoke, Front Royal, Harpers Ferry, Frederick, etc. worth visiting. + the Triple Crown. The Great Smokies are iconic, but they're a far smaller piece of North Carolina than the Appalachians/Blue Ridge are to Virginia (even excluding West Virginia, which is practically all mountain).
On the beaches, I agree that Wilmington toward Myrtle Beach is the best stretch. But next up is Virginia Beach. The Outer Banks are nice for visiting but you can rarely even swim there given the currents.
Prominence is not the same thing as vertical rise. It is even more arbitrary than elevation. The views do not magically get worse on a peak just because a taller mountain is nearby, connected by a saddle. Spire measure is what you really want to get a sense of the scale a peak offers. Unfortunately the Southern Apps have not been mapped by spire measure very well. There are situations where elevation doesn't give you the whole story, but since NC's mountains begin near sea level, it is more significant. Peaks over 5500 ft have a spruce fir forest growing on them, which creates a visual contrast to the deciduous forests below. It also makes them more dynamic instead of gray and drab in the winter. Only one place in VA is high enough to have a boreal forest, and it's closer to NC's cities than VA's.
Grandfather Mountain has 3 major peaks. This is Attic Window from MacRae Peak. The two less prominent peaks are the more interesting ones. Note the boreal forest.
The other perk of elevation is that you're more likely to be above the clouds, and get views like this.
Nowhere else on the east coast has the amount of raw rock you can find at Linville Gorge. While VA has the Alleghenies and the Blue Ridge, it simply doesn't have places as rugged as this, so I think it is a very big stretch to say there's more variety.
It isn't a contest. Height + number of significant peaks + ruggedness. NC, NH, and NY are in a different tier from the other eastern states as far as mountains go, in my book.
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