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I think there are a few fundamentals that you need to consider first:
Modern ICE have different cycles depending on whether the motor (and coolant) are warmed up or not. A "cold" engine is not recommended for high RPMs, heavy throttle inputs, and tends to absorb more water particles in the oil (producing sludge). When the engine reaches normal operating temperature, the heat can vaporize the water particles out the tail pipe of the exhaust (you'll see some cars doing this while stopped at an intersection). Bottomline: ICE don't like to be cold and produce more wear and tear at that state. Small diesels are very efficient and take miles to warm up, so you can rule out 4-cylinder turbodiesels.
ICE-electric hybrids typically pair a detuned ICE variant with one or several electric motors in conjunction with a CVT. They are usually designed to work both in isolation and together as a synergy (hence the greater efficiency). Battery energy is restored by both the ICE motor (much like an alternator) and through regenerative braking systems where the electric motors instantly become electric generators once the net energy required to turn the wheels is less than the kinetic energy of the vehicle (typically when you "gear coast" or apply the brakes). There are still conventional friction brakes but those do not provide any recoverable energy back to the car.
PHEV are ICE-electric hybrids with the ability to plug and charge the battery from an EVSE and usually has an "EV-only" mode that get you anywhere from 9-50 miles depending on the vehicle. Some PHEVs have their ICE operating so seldomly that they might need to be run to reach operating temperature as a preventive maintenance cycle...otherwise the oil can get sludge and the seals can get gummy. BEVs operate without a combustion engine and rely on a battery and electric motors which can be incredibly lightweight for efficiency while others can be more performance oriented. The Bosch SMG electric motor in my 1st gen Fiat 500e weighs less than 80lbs.
If you routinely drive 10 miles a day and you are a multi-vehicle household, I would recommend a cheap used EV good for about 80 miles of range. If it's going to be your only vehicle then I'd just recommend a reliable ICE or hybrid. You'll probably see about 10-20% better efficiency with the hybrid, but if you're only driving the car <6K miles a year then you're really not going to see much of difference. Actually, if I were you I'd look into a discounted high-miled used car that has been reasonably maintained. Your ownership and usage will average out the mileage over 3-5 years and then you could probably sell it for not too far from what you're paid.
As others have noted, you can get a lot of charged miles into your EV even through a Level 1 EVSE. Most of us are usually home by 8pm and don't leave the house until 6am...so that 10 hours of charging can get you about 35-50 miles of range each night. You could also get 20-30 miles of range per hour at a Level 2 EVSE if needed.
Thanks for the analysis.
As for my driving, while I do drive very little, and almost solely locally, a couple of times a year we'll take a trip of 200-300 miles. We'll often then leave the car parked for 2 weeks or more. Parking garage at airport or cruiseport has some chargers, but not many. And I am not sure if parking for WEEKS at a Charger is even allowed? SO my fear is that I may not have enough charge left to get back home. Even stopping at a Charger on the road is not something I'd look forward to - sitting somewhere for an hour or more while the car charges is much more inconvenient than just filling a gas tank for a few minutes. And after a trip, usually anxious to get home. A Hybrid will do nothing for me. Thus it seems the PHEV is the way for me to go. Or just gas.
As for a cold engine, I'm in FLorida, and car is always in garage, so the engine will never be below around 75 degrees - even in our winters, garage stays warm. So getting engine up to temp shouldn't be too long.
The car I drive now was one of those used cars well maintained. That was 9 years ago - while it rides nice, pretty much all the bells & whistles are no longer working, and I want something where I sit a little higher.
I’m interested in hearing more about why you’d make this decision based upon a twice-annual event even after acknowledging that your daily needs could be met or exceeded by an EV.
I made the opposite decision based in a similar set of parameters, even though my 200+ mile trips far exceed yours. By the end of October I will have completed 3 trips over 200 miles for the month. Plus another upcoming in November. I’m probably averaging around ten 200+ mile trips annually that require public charging. But my daily needs are met without ever having to fuel away from home, a ridiculous convenience that once experienced, would be nearly impossible to give up.
Thanks for the analysis.
As for my driving, while I do drive very little, and almost solely locally, a couple of times a year we'll take a trip of 200-300 miles. We'll often then leave the car parked for 2 weeks or more. Parking garage at airport or cruiseport has some chargers, but not many. And I am not sure if parking for WEEKS at a Charger is even allowed? SO my fear is that I may not have enough charge left to get back home. Even stopping at a Charger on the road is not something I'd look forward to - sitting somewhere for an hour or more while the car charges is much more inconvenient than just filling a gas tank for a few minutes. And after a trip, usually anxious to get home. A Hybrid will do nothing for me. Thus it seems the PHEV is the way for me to go. Or just gas.
As for a cold engine, I'm in FLorida, and car is always in garage, so the engine will never be below around 75 degrees - even in our winters, garage stays warm. So getting engine up to temp shouldn't be too long.
The car I drive now was one of those used cars well maintained. That was 9 years ago - while it rides nice, pretty much all the bells & whistles are no longer working, and I want something where I sit a little higher.
Based on your requirements and driving habits, only an older fuel efficient ICE is what I would recommend. If you drove more miles and more often, then a hybrid would be good. Not driving for prolonged periods of time is not very good for anything with a battery. Operating temps of the car and ambient temps are in different ranges, so all kwong7 explained still applies. Yes, it helps that you live in FL, but still each time you start the car, your engine is 'cold'.
I don't get your statement that hybrid would do nothing for you, but then you'd move to even more complexity of the PHEV.
I drive Prius Prime every week and PHEVs are great, but you need to run the ICE intentionally if your trips are short most of the time. Honestly, I'd prefer a hybrid where all the energy comes from gasoline, but is used efficiently. More importantly, the emissions are greatly reduced, which is not a small thing.
One thing I'd recommend, if going electrified (Hybrid or PHEV), is to get a Toyota drivetrain. I know that many companies make all sorts of hybrids, but they all have vastly different systems. For some of them space shuttle is an exercise in simplicity. You don't want those headaches down the road, for that little driving you do. Most people here in CA, drive in a couple of weeks or a month as much as you do in a year.
Read what kwong7 posted again.
I’m interested in hearing more about why you’d make this decision based upon a twice-annual event even after acknowledging that your daily needs could be met or exceeded by an EV.
I made the opposite decision based in a similar set of parameters, even though my 200+ mile trips far exceed yours. By the end of October I will have completed 3 trips over 200 miles for the month. Plus another upcoming in November. I’m probably averaging around ten 200+ mile trips annually that require public charging. But my daily needs are met without ever having to fuel away from home, a ridiculous convenience that once experienced, would be nearly impossible to give up.
But you do have to Charge away from home, don't you? That's where I am reluctant to have an all electric - finding and then 'hanging out" at a charging station while the car charges is not something of interest to me. In my 70's, time is precious.
And, as mentioned, it would be a major reno project to install a 220 line (thanks to an incompetent builder who designed this house).
"Most people here in CA, drive in a couple of weeks or a month as much as you do in a year." That's why I live in a downtown, walkable neighborhood, and my regular trips are primarily for volunteer activities. Used to live on Long Island with an awful commute. If only they had electric cars then. I used to have to stop and gets oats for my horse 2 - 3 times a week!!! Actually, the place I volunteer is moving in a year, so my commute will be closer to 20 miles a day. Oh, the horrors of such a long trip! :-)
But you do have to Charge away from home, don't you? That's where I am reluctant to have an all electric - finding and then 'hanging out" at a charging station while the car charges is not something of interest to me. In my 70's, time is precious.
"Hanging out" for 20 minutes twice a year is onerous to you? Really?
Quote:
And, as mentioned, it would be a major reno project to install a 220 line (thanks to an incompetent builder who designed this house).
As was mentioned before, if you barely do 30 miles a day (or week) then you can recharge overnight with a 120v outlet. No need for rewiring anything. I did that for years. I don't know why anyone thinks they have to fast charge while they are sleeping.
It’s an unnecessarily divisive topic with mostly political anger being redirected at owners so I’m unfortunately reluctant to get into even this discussion where the OP seems to be a very reasonable person, but I just can’t fathom making this decision based on an extreme outlier (a couple times a year) when the other 300+ driving days will see an incredibly increased convenience improvement.
Thanks for the analysis.
As for my driving, while I do drive very little, and almost solely locally, a couple of times a year we'll take a trip of 200-300 miles. We'll often then leave the car parked for 2 weeks or more. Parking garage at airport or cruiseport has some chargers, but not many. And I am not sure if parking for WEEKS at a Charger is even allowed? SO my fear is that I may not have enough charge left to get back home. Even stopping at a Charger on the road is not something I'd look forward to - sitting somewhere for an hour or more while the car charges is much more inconvenient than just filling a gas tank for a few minutes. And after a trip, usually anxious to get home. A Hybrid will do nothing for me. Thus it seems the PHEV is the way for me to go. Or just gas.
"A Hybrid will do nothing for me." That's a head scratcher. That's what you concluded after all of the advice given??
You mean other than saving you gas due to increased gas mileage, and otherwise operate like a regular ICE vehicle...? That's something.
I have a small SUV hybrid that gets almost 40 mpg overall. You can get more in the city if you drive it correctly. Which is right in your wheelhouse because you drive mostly locally. My record is 81.6 mpg that I achieved (per the trip computer) one time on a short 3 mile trip where I was able to use the electric motor for 2.1 miles out of 3.0 miles total. I took a picture of the gage cluster for posterity/proof when I parked.
It gets over 500 miles of range on a tank of fuel. So longer road trips are easy. The same SUV with an ICE motor gets probably 20% less fuel economy and therefore less range.
Other than that, it drives like an ICE, only smoother since the transmission doesn't shift due to the CVT. Instead of downshifting when passing you get a silent boost from the elec motor. It's pretty quick and peppy. Also quieter at times since it won't idle unless necessary (it usually runs on the battery such as at a drive thru line, parking, etc). Usually about 10,000 miles between oil changes. Love it.
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Last edited by KO Stradivarius; 10-25-2023 at 10:20 PM..
Thanks for the analysis.
As for my driving, while I do drive very little, and almost solely locally, a couple of times a year we'll take a trip of 200-300 miles. We'll often then leave the car parked for 2 weeks or more. Parking garage at airport or cruiseport has some chargers, but not many. And I am not sure if parking for WEEKS at a Charger is even allowed? SO my fear is that I may not have enough charge left to get back home. Even stopping at a Charger on the road is not something I'd look forward to - sitting somewhere for an hour or more while the car charges is much more inconvenient than just filling a gas tank for a few minutes. And after a trip, usually anxious to get home. A Hybrid will do nothing for me. Thus it seems the PHEV is the way for me to go. Or just gas.
As for a cold engine, I'm in FLorida, and car is always in garage, so the engine will never be below around 75 degrees - even in our winters, garage stays warm. So getting engine up to temp shouldn't be too long.
The car I drive now was one of those used cars well maintained. That was 9 years ago - while it rides nice, pretty much all the bells & whistles are no longer working, and I want something where I sit a little higher.
If you want to sit a little higher you may have to look at some of the smaller SUV's like the Toyota RAV4 or another that is similar to it. The seats in most smaller or compact sedans like my Toyota Corolla are quite low, even after adjusting the seat's height. The same for the Prius and other small cars.
For your situation of such low miles being driven I doubt the extra expense of a hybrid or EV is warranted. I would just buy whatever car is comfortable for you to drive and meets your accessory needs and not overthink the fuel/power system.
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