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Old 11-20-2008, 05:55 PM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,052 posts, read 84,612,102 times
Reputation: 27720

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stac2007 View Post
Is this the part where its our duty as citizens to support the government and pay for corporate America's mistakes? I have a headache.
Yes, at the expense of our savings, retirement and home values.
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Old 11-20-2008, 06:24 PM
 
Location: rain city
2,957 posts, read 12,742,553 times
Reputation: 4973
Quote:
Originally Posted by geos View Post
Imagine if oil goes back up.

If?? I think you can rest easy on this one. Oil will definitely go back up.

In the meantime, high oil prices will stop being a daily crisis and will drop off the radar screen of pontificating politicos and Americans will slumber peacefully, continuing to not prepare for the next energy panic--which will come. Then everyone will scramble madly again wondering what to do what to do.

Instead of investing in public transportation now --streetcars, trains, subways, rail--in preparation for the return of high oil prices, the government is going to hand billions (or trillions) to the companies that make the cars that need all the gas and oil.

This may be one of the most squandered opportunities in the history of American government to date.
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Old 11-20-2008, 09:27 PM
 
Location: state of enlightenment
2,403 posts, read 5,247,214 times
Reputation: 2500
Quote:
Originally Posted by azoria View Post
If?? I think you can rest easy on this one. Oil will definitely go back up.

In the meantime, high oil prices will stop being a daily crisis and will drop off the radar screen of pontificating politicos and Americans will slumber peacefully, continuing to not prepare for the next energy panic--which will come. Then everyone will scramble madly again wondering what to do what to do.

Instead of investing in public transportation now --streetcars, trains, subways, rail--in preparation for the return of high oil prices, the government is going to hand billions (or trillions) to the companies that make the cars that need all the gas and oil.

This may be one of the most squandered opportunities in the history of American government to date.
I agree completely. This is a opportunity to prepare for a new reality of scarce resources instead of trying to keep energy sucking dinosaurs on life support. Seems like we're lurching from crisis to crisis and no one can connect the dots. I sure hope Obama has more vision than he's showing at this point.
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Old 11-20-2008, 09:33 PM
 
Location: Texas
2,438 posts, read 7,019,771 times
Reputation: 1817
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stac2007 View Post
Is this the part where its our duty as citizens to support the government and pay for corporate America's mistakes? I have a headache.
You already are paying for it....
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Old 11-20-2008, 09:34 PM
 
Location: Indiana Uplands
26,439 posts, read 46,696,106 times
Reputation: 19596
Quote:
Originally Posted by floridasandy View Post
it is ironic that the parties are still blaming each other. i saw an interesting story about how neocons and neoliberals actually helped bring us to where we are now.

whatever the parties used to be, now both the republican and democratic parties are now run by people with identical agendas: make the big corporations richer and to protect the money.

There is only one party, which simply puts on different faces depending on which "branch" of the party is in power. If it is the democratic branch, there is a slightly liberal social veneer to the mask, more funding for social programs, a little more nice guy talk, a little more of a laissez faire attitude towards gays and minorities.

if its the republican branch, there's a little more tough guy talk, quicker moves towards military strategy, an affirmation of religion, and a tad more centralization of power in the president.
A good book that I recommend: "They Knew They Were Right"- The Rise of the Neocons, by Jacob Heilbrunn.
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Old 11-20-2008, 10:52 PM
 
5,760 posts, read 11,562,388 times
Reputation: 4949
Quote:
Originally Posted by azoria View Post
If?? I think you can rest easy on this one. Oil will definitely go back up.

In the meantime, high oil prices will stop being a daily crisis and will drop off the radar screen of pontificating politicos and Americans will slumber peacefully, continuing to not prepare for the next energy panic--which will come. Then everyone will scramble madly again wondering what to do what to do.

Instead of investing in public transportation now --streetcars, trains, subways, rail--in preparation for the return of high oil prices, the government is going to hand billions (or trillions) to the companies that make the cars that need all the gas and oil.


This may be one of the most squandered opportunities in the history of American government to date.
OH YEAH!

Have heard it described on the Energy Boards as the ocean receding because the wave of the Tsunami is rolling on in. RUN for the high land.

As exploration stops and many alternatives and renewables drop off, and the existing cheap and easy oil is burnt up, look for the next wave to be a BIG one.

I am taking the chance to re-double on the Renewable Energy equipment. With commodity prices -- steel, copper, aluminum all dropping like a rock as well, I may be able to get equipment costs down to where I can beat Hydro (Cheapest per unit cost source of electricity). I already have down to the point I can beat Coal (the benchmark for electricity production cost) but now it is time to drive the nails home.

Seize the Day.
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Old 11-20-2008, 11:37 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles Area
3,306 posts, read 4,162,451 times
Reputation: 592
Quote:
Originally Posted by tallrick View Post
Wait till inflation kicks in, once the bailout money works its way through the system. Ironically that will be what sends the US economy into great depression version 2.
You're going to be waiting a long time, if we started to see decent inflation anytime soon that will be a godsend.
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Old 11-21-2008, 12:02 AM
 
707 posts, read 1,294,805 times
Reputation: 438
Globalization is to blame for the mess we are in today. When we started exporting manufacturing to the rest of the world, we knew the american working class wouldn't accept the lower standard of living that was their destiny when competing with places like China and India. The powers that be decided that we can give the mirage of prosperity by expanding credit. So you can still buy that new car, you just have 60 months of payments. You can still buy a new house, even if you have a s**tty job at the mall because you don't need any money down and we can artificially keep interest rates low. But one day we realized that expansion of credit can't go on forever and that we are in a world of hurt from this mountain of debt we built up. Now the government wants to prime the pump and get the economy going but in a consumption based economy, there is only one way to do that, put money in the hands of the consumer either handouts(inflationary) or credit (disastrous). So what to do? If everyone starts saving money, the consumer based economy grinds to a halt. The banks don't want/can't lend because they can't meet capital requirements. So what to do? Back to basics, time to reuild from the bottom up.
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Old 11-21-2008, 12:28 AM
 
3,853 posts, read 12,878,401 times
Reputation: 2529
Quote:
Originally Posted by tallrick View Post
Wait till inflation kicks in, once the bailout money works its way through the system. Ironically that will be what sends the US economy into great depression version 2.
oh yes!
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Old 11-21-2008, 05:34 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
41,479 posts, read 59,867,298 times
Reputation: 24863
I believe this is the dying convulsions of the F.I.R.E. (Finance, Investment, Real Estate) economy. The gods of the marketplace have had enough and are enforcing the rule that an economy cannot borrow its way to perpetual prosperity. The unrealistically low interest rates have devastated real savings and encouraged frivolous spending. This is like low cost booze to an alcoholic. It feels great while it lasts but the hangovers are hell and extreme overindulgence will kill you.

Now we have to apply the Cure by raising interest rates to encourage savings and allow the housing, utility and food prices to drop in a wide spread deflation. Use progressive income tax supported unemployment insurance and food stamps to keep everyone housed and fed during the crisis.

It was fun for some while it lasted but now we are on economic life support and need to let the speculators get hammered. They got us into this so let them pay the cost.
[SIZE=3] [/SIZE]
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