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There are really two issues here. The first issue doesn't even deal with whether alternatives existed to the banks receiving bailouts. The issue was what would the psychological effect have been on the whole economy if a series of large banks had imploded. The panic that alone would have touched off would have been enormous. I would anticipate there would have been a "run" on virtually every bank in this country. The Federal Reserve System and the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation function pretty well when it comes to dealing with a small number of bank failures. The system would have been sorely strained dealing with hundreds of financial institutions demanding help because all their depositors showed up on the same day asking for their money back. Because it didn't happen, we have no way of knowing how severe the degree of national distress might have been. I personally am glad we never found out.
The administration of George W. Bush made a decision not to help the investment bank, Lehman Brothers, when they failed. Its widely considered that this move broadly made the initial crisis worse than it otherwise might have been.
The second issue is whether the surviving banks (assuming there would be some) after the type of widespread panic I mentioned above took place would have had the capacity to take up the slack for the banks that failed. The first thing that needs to be taken into consideration is that many small communities in America are served by a number of small community banks. Small community banks are probably less responsible than large banks for this problem in the first place. However, because they don't have the assets that large banks do, they probably would have been the first to fail. The result? People who live in small towns and middle America would have been the most affected and received the worst injuries from this financial crisis. I've never seen anyone do an actual estimate. However, if banks like the Chase Bank and Bank of America had gone under the contraction of the nation's money supply would have been huge. The housing market would not have been weak, it would have utterly collapsed along with financial institutions.
I think the effect on this nation and on its economy would have been profound. I frequently see posts here that either seem ignorant of all the harm that could have been done or gloss over it. I suppose if you are a single person with a bomb shelter out in the desert stocked with food and water for 3 years, you might not have much to worry about (a category which sadly seems to fit a number of the posters I see on CDF). For the rest of us who live in a society that is interdependent on others for everything from the food we eat to the natural gas we purchase to heat our homes this kind of crisis could easily have been a catastrophe.
I'm sorry we have 9.1% unemployment. Its a tired refrain to suggest things could be worse. The truth is though that they absolutely could have and would have if bold action hadn't been taken.
where is it widely considered? i don't disagree about the panic that would ensue, but you do realize, if banks had assets that were inappopriately rated for risk, were incorrectly overvalued, AND the institution was levereged at 30:1, you aren't making the situation worse, you're just allowing the banks to become worthless, which is what they are. the assistance just spreads it out over time.
My entire post had something in it about how the government has allowed itself to become corrupted.
How can they regulate business when they've got ex-businessmen in the Government helping the companies and industries that got them there?
I agree though, that our gov't needs it's own regulations on itself, but that has to run hand in hand with regulations on corporations.
I think 'lobby money' or 'campaign funds (anonymously)' is a big synonym for a bribe.
I think your premise is fully documented in the book "Winner-Take-All Politics: How Washington Made the Rich Richer--and Turned Its Back on the Middle Class" by Paul Pierson and Jacob Hacker. The vast American economic inequality which has burgeoned since the 1970's is largely the result of deliberate political decisions to shape markets in ways that benefit the privileged at the expense of everyone else. I think this is what the protests are really about. When Wall Street profits soar 720% and the average CEO salary increases 185% while more and people are out of work or barely getting by, there is definitely a problem somewhere.
The movement is so new and un-organized (not disorganized) that it is hard to parse out exactly who it represents in the broadest terms and specifically. There's people calling for corporate-gov't reform, gov't reform (who could be against that?), jobs creation (ditto), an end to he endless war (ditto for a lot of people), etc. It's a populist movement against what is perceived to be the ruling elite, but it does not grasp the understanding of where the real seat of word powers lie (beyond "the Pres"). Too many movements lack the tools and savvy to know how to keep their goals focused and achievable. Also, unfortunately, the media zoom their cameras in on the "hippie" types, stereotyping the people involved. The movement needs a reputable face.
the movement doesn't need a face. it doesn't need a spokesperson. it doesn't need demands.
the "movement" is a lot of people, with all sorts of political beliefs, bringing attention to getting more involved with the process.
too many people vote every 2 or every 4 years. many stay home in non presedential years. many don't vote locally.
this is about voting and forgetting not being enough. you have to get involved. whether you want socialism, or zero regulations, SPEAK UP. stop letting lobbyists shape our policy, and SPEAK UP
Their message is all over the place...End corporate welfare, People over profit, Peace and justice, End the wars, etc. Of course it's all related, but if they don't come up with a workable, focused, believable, feasible case statement (as well as detailed plan--how they propose to effect the changes), I believe the efforts will fizzle, just like the MoveOn organization fizzled when it came to opposing the Iraq War. They need a master plan, and representative spokespersons who do not sound like emotional radicals (even though their position is radical).
it's not a political party. there is no reason for a detailed plan. they aren't backing candidates for office, and i hope they never do.
as soon as this gets taken over by targeted goals and political platform, then it becomes just another special interest. it's good that it's diversed and unfocused. imagine that! people that don't all agree on national policy gathering together saying they want their voices heard, not corporations' voices heard!
While it's impressive to see that the demonstrations are keeping up nationally despite police brutality (shocking scenes of people getting severely beaten), you have to wonder where it's going to lead. IMO, it will either lead to urban free-for-all general violence in the streets perhaps with looting and deaths, or it will lead to something structured and focused that has a chance at change (not to be pessimistic, but not too likely), or it will fizzle because the demonstrators will see their efforts going nowhere. I remember well the MoveOn demonstrations and marches against the Iraq war. MoveOn apparently got a lot of monetary contributions and never followed through, just fizzled. Where did all those contributions go? Where is MoveOn today??? Where will OSW be in another month when the northern cities will be entering winter and it will be too cold for many to be out on the streets?
This morning I had the honour and distinction of running into some of the folks from the occupy wall street crowd, personally.
They are encamped in groups here and there around Manhattan.
If I have to pull a few adjectives - illiterate, filthy, obnoxious body odour, drug addicts, drunks and predominantly clueless. And the amount of garbage they have created around them, the ridiculous amount of littering, water bottles, food bags and beer bottles.... It makes me wonder if they actually have a point or are simply causing the biggest menace to the city and the NYPD.
This is their answer to the people who otherwise did not drop out of school, worked hard and got themselves ahead, thanks to good education, life choices and sacrifices?
They are not going to achieve anything unless they start from the grassroots and put their focus on education and learning, rather than socialist tendencies and a sense of jealousy towards people who have made it to the other side.
This morning I had the honour and distinction of running into some of the folks from the occupy wall street crowd, personally.
They are encamped in groups here and there around Manhattan.
If I have to pull a few adjectives - illiterate, filthy, obnoxious body odour, drug addicts, drunks and predominantly clueless. And the amount of garbage they have created around them, the ridiculous amount of littering, water bottles, food bags and beer bottles.... It makes me wonder if they actually have a point or are simply causing the biggest menace to the city and the NYPD.
This is their answer to the people who otherwise did not drop out of school, worked hard and got themselves ahead, thanks to good education, life choices and sacrifices?
They are not going to achieve anything unless they start from the grassroots and put their focus on education and learning, rather than socialist tendencies and a sense of jealousy towards people who have made it to the other side.
Where were you walking?
How can you tell when someone is illiterate?
You have showers in the middle of a park? Filthy and BO are things to be expected.
They cleaned up the park to stay put, but there are a lot of people there...
Seems like having drunkards and druggies and high school dropouts lead a massive protest is ironic eh?
Do you see nothing wrong with our political system or where the USA is/has been headed?
This morning I had the honour and distinction of running into some of the folks from the occupy wall street crowd, personally.
They are encamped in groups here and there around Manhattan.
If I have to pull a few adjectives - illiterate, filthy, obnoxious body odour, drug addicts, drunks and predominantly clueless. And the amount of garbage they have created around them, the ridiculous amount of littering, water bottles, food bags and beer bottles.... It makes me wonder if they actually have a point or are simply causing the biggest menace to the city and the NYPD.
This is their answer to the people who otherwise did not drop out of school, worked hard and got themselves ahead, thanks to good education, life choices and sacrifices?
They are not going to achieve anything unless they start from the grassroots and put their focus on education and learning, rather than socialist tendencies and a sense of jealousy towards people who have made it to the other side.
While your personal impression to you is real, you don't get it that they are out there in all their messiness BECAUSE this is a major grassroots effort on their part to address the elephants in the room that have caused the disappearance of opportunities and jobs in our rather ruthless global economy.
This crisis is not confined to the U.S.--we see increasing joblessness and poverty everywhere in the world escalating at a steady pace.
I think you are wrong about "jealousy." I think the more appropriate words are outraged, disgruntled, disgusted, disenfranchized, disabled (from participating in the diminishing mainstream economy), disinherited, and soon, thanks to our government and its policies, diseased.
They do not at all appear to be at the level of intelligence you would like them to be, where it's so easy to categorize the individuals of a movement so as to marginalize them and make their "stupid efforts" disappear.
I may be wrong, but as I said earlier one possibility is that this whole thing will not disappear but in fact escalate. That remains to be seen.
This movement does not appear to be directed to "you" (the successful American). It is directed to the national policies that are allowing fewer and fewer of "you."
CNN report today:
The Occupy Wall Street movement spilled into main streets around the world today....
"It's [the peaceful demonstrations] has been completely hijacked by these violent factions, and the police are nervous, and the situation is very tense," Barbie Nadeau, a Newsweek correspondent, told CNN.
Last edited by RiverBird; 10-15-2011 at 04:16 PM..
I must admit that I am really behind in knowing what the heck is going on as I was out of the country when it began; and then was too consumed with my job to pay much attention to it when I came back, but now that it is going on in more areas than just NYC, I need/want to try and understand it. But not only for me, but for my students as we are going to begin a Transcendental unit, I want them to see that peaceful protests are not just in the history books nor from me telling them about my marching against the Viet Nam War. We were going to look at what had happened in countries where governments fell, but now that this is going on here, I want them to see it first hand. I listened to a few people on Youtube, who were speaking out when this first began and now this was going on (as I don't watch tv as a rule), but now I am confused as ever.
Does anyone have any ideas for me on how to begin to explain/show what is going on? Anything that can take me/them to the beginning as to why it began and who organized it?? My goal every year when I teach this is to show them the power of people who protest peacefully against injustices.
Any helpful hints, sites, reports would be greatly appreciated. And if you want, you could send me a message instead of posting here if you would prefer.
This movement will die. I made two pit stops. Macy's and then metro art museum, and I'm sitting in grand central at the moment. One will not even imagine there is a section of population in some part of New York, disgruntled and outraged becoz of their own failure and none else.... I look around, everybody is happy, shoppers, tourists, grand central is full of shopping bags heading back to Westchester, Jersey and Connecticut. It's hard to say there is an ongoing economic crisis, unless one's checking tv
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The reality about the occupy wall street folks
