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When used correctly, they are a valuable tool. When cranked up high and left on the dog all day long, or when the dog is taken to the dog park wearing one, there is a problem.
I compete my dog in agility. She is highly, highly motion reactive. The second another dog ran, she was lunging at the crate door (or the end of the leash), barking and trying to chase them. Then she'd work herself up into such a frenzy it took HOURS (literally) after we got home for her to relax again. For years and years I tried to teach her to remain calm in exciting situations. I did the relaxation protocol every night. I rewarded "downs" in a crate when another dog was going. I took every "reactive dog" seminar I could find, and stuffed her face so full of cheese trying to counter condition her behavior.
No luck. It truly just got worse. She became ridiculously reactive to trucks, bikes, and people walking in front of our house. She'd run from window to window clawing at the glass and barking her head off. Sure, we tried to counter condition it (treats every time a vehicle came by), but realistically I can't spend every waking minute sitting in the front room, so it wasn't fair to her--sometimes she got away with barking at the vehicles (when we were at work), sometimes I called her off and gave her treats for quieting down, and sometimes, when my hands were full or I couldn't get there, I'd just yell. So many mixed messages. She started running to the window to bark at NOTHING, then running to the kitchen for treats. It was a disaster.
Finally, after THREE YEARS of trying to fix the problem with numerous highly respected positive reinforcement trainers, they (and I) finally admitted it wasn't going to happen. I had a dog who just could not control herself. We tried punishment--kicking the crate door when she barked, spraying her with water from a squirt bottle, and even a citronella collar. No dice. She wouldn't even flinch. I finally resigned myself to the bark collar. The trainer I worked with had some really good advice. First off was to buy a decent collar (duh). Get one that has numerous levels on it. I bought this one:
I put it on her on the very lowest setting (level 2)--level 1 is vibrate only. We used it at home, first, when she got worked up in the evening. The first time it went off, she yelped; I cried. (In retrospect, I think she yelped mainly out of surprise). That was it. She has never barked with the collar on again. One shock was all it took. Now I just put it on her and don't even turn it on most of the time. We can go to agility trials and she can pretty much calm down in her crate.
She has replaced barking with whining when she's really worked up (whining does not set off the collar), which is a little annoying--but it's SO MUCH BETTER than the shrill bark that just fed off itself and quickly became a never ending barking frenzy.
I honestly wish I had tried the collar earlier. I am glad I exhausted my other options because I truly felt like I had no other choice when I used it, so I had very little guilt. In 5 minutes, a problem I'd been working to solve for 3 years disappeared. It saved my sanity, allowed my dog to continue to play agility, and has overall lowered the stress levels in my house.
Thanks for the advice! I'm going to try the citronella.
I agree they work. but our golden retriever figured out how to circumvent it. After putting the collar on, she would run from one end of the yard to the other barking until the collar ran out of spray. We also tried an electric collar, but she has a high pain tolerance and it did no good. Fortunately for us, as she got older, she barks less and is easier to get to stop. We've also have had vocal german shepherds and shock collars have been effective with them. Note, use of a collar was after trying every other method in training books with little to no effect.
I agree they work. but our golden retriever figured out how to circumvent it. After putting the collar on, she would run from one end of the yard to the other barking until the collar ran out of spray. We also tried an electric collar, but she has a high pain tolerance and it did no good. Fortunately for us, as she got older, she barks less and is easier to get to stop. We've also have had vocal german shepherds and shock collars have been effective with them. Note, use of a collar was after trying every other method in training books with little to no effect.
Yes Golden Retrievers. Like Border Collies not only will they play fetch and do every trick in the book, they will also bring the wiring in your house up to code when they are bored.
That is scary smart.
Update, we ordered the citronella collar from Amazon. My wife was out with the dogs last night and smelled pot coming from the neighbors side of the fence. Now my poor dogs will have to smell lemon and dope LOL.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PullMyFinger
My wife was out with the dogs last night and smelled pot coming from the neighbors side of the fence. Now my poor dogs will have to smell lemon and dope LOL.
HAHAHAHAHA! Poor pups. Lemon shpritzes surely aren't going to satisfy the munchies.
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Originally Posted by cittic10
I have some pretty vocal dogs and the "quiet" command works every time.
I recommend teaching that first and if you still need a collar then cross that bridge when you get to it.
You ask what we thought of them, well I think they are punishing the dog for a behavior they don't know is unwanted rather than rewarding for the behavior that is. Most of the time all you need to do is teach them what you want them to do. People sometimes just don't want to bother with training the dog and would get some magical device to do it for them.
Never the less 30 seconds of barking is far from being a nuisance.
I don't necessarily disagree, however, the above is not that different from telling a golfer with a terrible slice "I recommend that you stop putting screwball spin on the ball."
Also, I've had dogs that were very pliable with regard to training for "HUSH" - but there are a lot of dogs that aren't very receptive in that regard and there are a lot of dogs for which training what you want them to do isn't necessarily enough. Sometimes, training the dog to recognize what you don't want is also necessary. Just my opinion.
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Originally Posted by jimboburnsy
Sometimes, training the dog to recognize what you don't want is also necessary. Just my opinion.
Yeah that's exactly what I suggested. Trying training. Not punishment. You can't expect a dog to not bark if they don't know you don't want them to bark. And they need to get in the habit of not barking. Shouting at them out of frustration isn't enough. Doggies no habla ingles.
But then again training is work and work is a four letter word so can't be bothered by that. So much easier just to hook on a magical punishment device first and save time.
Doesn't look like training is on the menu at the pull my finger house. You can lead a horse to drink.
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Last edited by Sam I Am; 08-22-2012 at 11:07 AM..
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[quote=cittic10;25743359]Yeah that's exactly what I suggested. Trying training. Not punishment. You can't expect a dog to not bark if they don't know you don't want them to bark. And they need to get in the habit of not barking. Shouting at them out of frustration isn't enough. Doggies no habla ingles.
But then again training is work and work is a four letter word so can't be bothered by that. So much easier just to hook on a magical punishment device first and save time.
Doesn't look like training is on the menu at the pull my finger house. You can lead a horse to drink.
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...but you can't make him water.
As an afterthought, it doesn't really matter if your training incorporates elements of positive punishment nor does it matter if your positive punishments are sometimes administered by modern electronic devices - you're still going to do lots of that four letter word.
My exception to your comment was based on broad conceptual strokes; those aren't necessarily very useful ("stop putting screwball spin on the ball"). Offer some specifics.
For example: In the Pacific Theater of WWII the Marine Corps employed dogs for detection work. They trained their dogs not to bark via simple, repetitive positive punishment. Any time the dog would make a sound, its handler would grab the dog by the muzzle and say "NO BARK". They were able to achieve this relatively quickly because they spent all day of every day with their dogs. It can be very difficult to effect the extinction of a self-reinforcing behavior like barking (i.e. dog sees the delivery boy, dog barks like crazy, delivery boy apparently goes away due to barking, barking is reinforced) if you do not spend the majority of your waking hours with your dog on-lead at your side. You may take a step forward training your dog in the morning and, by the time you come home from work, the dog has taken ten steps back all by itself. If your work schedule, your family, etc. etc. dictates that you can't put in the time required to modify a determined, stubborn dog's behavior then there really is no reason that the bark collar (or the citronella collar) can't take the place of your hand grabbing the dog's muzzle and saying "NO BARK". Just my $0.02.
Last edited by Sam I Am; 08-22-2012 at 11:07 AM..
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Driller1
Some of it is the dog's breed.
Our hounds bark......they just do.
I just got back from working Rip and he is running on the tie out barking.
I am not sure training collars and "no bark" collars are the same but, all three hounds know if they have them on or, not.
We do not discourage barking.
It is part of the sport we do with them.
I should add that the opinions in post #17 presume that there is an actual need for putting that four letter word into quiet dogs.
I can't even imagine trying to "un-bay" a working hound... I have very little knowledge with regard to training and handling hounds, but I've watched them at work on pigs enough to get a sense for how difficult it would be to train out the fundamental hound dog in there.
I just got back from working Rip and he is running on the tie out barking.
I am not sure training collars and "no bark" collars are the same but, all three hounds know if they have them on or, not.
We do not discourage barking.
It is part of the sport we do with them.
They can be. Some training collars have a optional barking control function. Bark collars have only one function, to automatically control barking. We've used bark collars to control barking with our shepherds. Our current shepherd has some control issues that can escalate, so I decided to get a training collar. I was going to get a training/bark control collar, but decided against it because I wouldn't leave the collar on him when not in a position to train. Turns out he assumes the training collar is like the bark collar. He also learned quickly from the training collar, so now I can get him under control and to come with a beep and vibrate only.
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