Anyone else on the "Why We Get Fat" (Taubes) diet? (hormones, recipes)
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"Listening to your body" is going to make you fat. It wants you to be a huge pig. I doubt most overweight people are eating that much when they're not hungry. They're just hungry a whole lot or eat too much before their brains catch up with their stomachs. Also, this idea that eating less is going to slow down your metabolism is pretty overblown. If you eat only 1,000 calories a day for a week you will lose weight.
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Originally Posted by CAVA1990
My body tells me it wants a plate of cookies and a big glass of milk. My good sense says to eat a peach instead.
Your body is very different than mine.
Mine says to eat chicken and wild rice soup with fresh sage. To eat mangos and blueberries, roasted pureed turnips with fresh rosemary and olive oil. Spinach salad with walnuts, feta, and apple cider vinaigrette.
My body thinks milk and cookies are nasty and tells me to pass. It wasn't always like that though. I had to learn how to cook and to appreciate fresh, properly cooked ingredients after growing up on the SAD. I also had to break my sugar addiction. There's probably a gut microbiota component as well, with cravings dependent on the composition of the microbes in your gut (which is dependent on what you eat, so it's probably a cycle you have to break first by making yourself eat certain things for a while).
So I go with the "listening to your body" thing. Do you ignore your body when it tells you to drink water by making you feel thirsty as well?
The brain regulates homeostasis in our bodies, including balancing energy intake and expenditure. If I run 10 miles my body craves fruit. If I do squats and deadlifts it craves protein and fat. Cravings and hunger and thirst are how your body gets you to provide it with what it needs. That's why you crave a certain food one day and then another day you have no desire to eat it. If your body is not thrown into a state of dysregulation by the SAD the brain will not tell you to eat garbage foods, it will tell you to eat what it needs.
Last edited by EugeneOnegin; 06-23-2013 at 01:10 PM..
1. We are not all other primates. We are human, genetically adapted to be omnivores.
This isn't a statement of fact, instead your personal opinion.
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Originally Posted by Sacman
* All other primates get 5-10% of their calories from protein (the amount in fruit and lettuce)
* in nature, we couldn't eat a high-protein diet (raw beans are toxic, raw grain is indigestible, and animals run too fast-and they'd kill US if we caught them. And none taste good to us raw. Only fruit does)
* Modern High protein diets (made possible by milling machines, cooking, and weapons) causes leaching of calcium that has caused an osteoporosis epidemic.
1.) The other primates aren't eating domesticated fruits which are bred to be very sugary and as such lower in protein. The average wild fruit has a protein profile that is more similar to vegetables, that is around 10~20%, as such apes have a higher protein intake than 5~10%.
2.) "In nature", what is that suppose to mean? Humans have always cooked their food and our ancestors have been doing it for at least 1 million years (most likely the last 2 million). Also, not all beans and grains need to be cooked before eating them.
3.) Some calcium is lost in the urine when protein is metabolized, but the body responds to this by up-regulating calcium absorption in the small intestine. Also, its primary animal protein that is associated with calcium loss, not protein in general, so its probably some other confounding factor.
Um, no, it's not my opinion. It's fact. Check any human anatomy/physiology book. I don't mean wikipedia, or Taubes' website. I mean an actual science book. Check National Geographic's histories of the human species. Humans are omnivores. Maybe you're misunderstanding the word omnivore.
And primates DO eat meat. Most primates' diet is mostly fruits and raw plant matter, but animal-based food IS included in their diet.
Um, no, it's not my opinion. It's fact. Check any human anatomy/physiology book. ...Humans are omnivores. Maybe you're misunderstanding the word omnivore.
Or maybe you forgot what you actually said? A anatomy/physiology book isn't going to talk about what diet humans are adapted to, that is an evolutionary question one of which doesn't have a answer. A anatomy textbook is going to describe.......anatomy.
But saying "humans are omnivores" really doesn't say much to begin with, and saying "humans adapted to be omnivores" is even worse. Animals don't adapt to broad dietary categories, they adapt to particular diets. A wolf and a chimp are both omnivores, yet a wolf would have a terrible time consuming a chimp diet (and vice verse) as the wolf isn't adapted to such a diet.
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Originally Posted by AnonChick
And primates DO eat meat. Most primates' diet is mostly fruits and raw plant matter, but animal-based food IS included in their diet.
There is not a single primate diet, instead there is large variety in the primate world. Some primates consume an exclusively plant-based diet, others consume mostly insects. Some consume mostly fruit, some mostly leafs, etc. But you're overgeneralizing again, "plant matter" and "animal based food" are very general...primates eat very particular plant matter and, when consumed, very particular animal matter. The vast majority of "animal based food" consists of insects, next would be things like eggs. The consumption of flesh foods is relatively rate in the primate world.
An adaption to eating insects is vastly different than say an adaption to eat large mammals or their secretions. Just as an adaption to eating fruit is much different than an adaption to eating grasses.
Or maybe you forgot what you actually said? A anatomy/physiology book isn't going to talk about what diet humans are adapted to, that is an evolutionary question one of which doesn't have a answer. A anatomy textbook is going to describe.......anatomy.
But saying "humans are omnivores" really doesn't say much to begin with, and saying "humans adapted to be omnivores" is even worse. Animals don't adapt to broad dietary categories, they adapt to particular diets. A wolf and a chimp are both omnivores, yet a wolf would have a terrible time consuming a chimp diet (and vice verse) as the wolf isn't adapted to such a diet.
There is not a single primate diet, instead there is large variety in the primate world. Some primates consume an exclusively plant-based diet, others consume mostly insects. Some consume mostly fruit, some mostly leafs, etc. But you're overgeneralizing again, "plant matter" and "animal based food" are very general...primates eat very particular plant matter and, when consumed, very particular animal matter. The vast majority of "animal based food" consists of insects, next would be things like eggs. The consumption of flesh foods is relatively rate in the primate world.
An adaption to eating insects is vastly different than say an adaption to eat large mammals or their secretions. Just as an adaption to eating fruit is much different than an adaption to eating grasses.
The vast majority of humans are omnivores, though aren't they? How do you account for that? Why do vegans need to take a B12 supplement?
The consumption of meat by chimpanzees is not "relatively rare."
"In some sites the quantity of meat eaten by a chimpanzee community may approach one ton annually."
"At Gombe, we now know that chimpanzees may kill and eat more than 150 small and medium sized animals such as monkeys, wild pigs and small antelopes each year."
"I estimate that in some years, the 45 chimpanzees of the main study community at Gombe kill and consume more than 1500 pounds of prey animals of all species."
The article also explores the social aspect of hunting, citing an alpha male who used captured prey as a political tool to reward allies.
"And William McGrew (1992) has shown that those female Gombe chimps who receive generous shares of meat after a kill have more surviving offspring, indicating a reproductive benefit tied to meat-eating."
Like it or not, humans as a species are omnivores. Individuals may decide to forgo meat, but there is nothing unnatural about choosing to eat it.
The vast majority of humans are omnivores, though aren't they? How do you account for that? Why do vegans need to take a B12 supplement?
The vast majority of primates are "omnivores", but as I was just pointing out "omnivore" is a very general and useless category when you're discussing the diet of a particular animal. Saying an animal is an "omnivore" tells you very little about what they eat and what their well adapted to eat.
As for B12, firstly ts not just vegans that need to supplement. B12 supplementation is recommended for anybody over 50 because people lose the ability to digest animal based B12 which is attached to protein. So this isn't a question about vegans, but there is a straightforward answer. Westerners, whether they are vegan or over 50, live in a sanitized world that has been stripped of natural sources of B12. B12 occurs in soil, natural water sources and....feces (including human). "In nature", people would have ingested plenty of B12....B12 that wasn't bond to animal protein.
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Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
The consumption of meat by chimpanzees is not "relatively rare."
Firstly, please respond to what I actually said...which was that flesh foods are relative rare in the primate world. I said nothing about chimpanzees in particular, but for chimps, flesh foods make up a small part of their diet. The chimpanzee diet, depending on the group, is around 95~98% plant-based. Do the math in what you're quoting, they said that a group of 45 chimps in "some years" (i.e., this is the upper limit) may consume up to 1500 pounds of meat. So in a very meaty year, this group would consume around 1.4 ounces of meat a day per member which would be a very small part of their overall diet.
Lastly, you seem to be implying that because chimps eat this way that its natural for humans to eat flesh foods as well. But that doesn't follow, 5 million years of evolution separate humans from chimps and humans wouldn't be able to subsist on a chimp diet. All the great apes have different diets, the only common theme is that they are all plant-based with no or little animal foods.
As for your closing comment, you seem to have ignored everything I said in the comment you are quoting. I've never suggested humans are herbivores, instead I've pointed out how broad "omnivore" is as a category. Saying that "humans are omnivores" to justify human flesh consumption is just a game that people, as yourself, like to play. Being an "omnivore" doesn't mean you're a flesh eater.
The vast majority of primates are "omnivores", but as I was just pointing out "omnivore" is a very general and useless category when you're discussing the diet of a particular animal. Saying an animal is an "omnivore" tells you very little about what they eat and what their well adapted to eat.
As for B12, firstly ts not just vegans that need to supplement. B12 supplementation is recommended for anybody over 50 because people lose the ability to digest animal based B12 which is attached to protein. So this isn't a question about vegans, but there is a straightforward answer. Westerners, whether they are vegan or over 50, live in a sanitized world that has been stripped of natural sources of B12. B12 occurs in soil, natural water sources and....feces (including human). "In nature", people would have ingested plenty of B12....B12 that wasn't bond to animal protein.
Firstly, please respond to what I actually said...which was that flesh foods are relative rare in the primate world. I said nothing about chimpanzees in particular, but for chimps, flesh foods make up a small part of their diet. The chimpanzee diet, depending on the group, is around 95~98% plant-based. Do the math in what you're quoting, they said that a group of 45 chimps in "some years" (i.e., this is the upper limit) may consume up to 1500 pounds of meat. So in a very meaty year, this group would consume around 1.4 ounces of meat a day per member which would be a very small part of their overall diet.
Lastly, you seem to be implying that because chimps eat this way that its natural for humans to eat flesh foods as well. But that doesn't follow, 5 million years of evolution separate humans from chimps and humans wouldn't be able to subsist on a chimp diet. All the great apes have different diets, the only common theme is that they are all plant-based with no or little animal foods.
As for your closing comment, you seem to have ignored everything I said in the comment you are quoting. I've never suggested humans are herbivores, instead I've pointed out how broad "omnivore" is as a category. Saying that "humans are omnivores" to justify human flesh consumption is just a game that people, as yourself, like to play. Being an "omnivore" doesn't mean you're a flesh eater.
Yes, an omnivore is a "flesh eater" - though hopefully not an eater of human flesh.
The main reason that chimps eat relatively little meat appears to be due to the difficulty in catching it and the fact that the food can fight back. Given the opportunity, they do eat it.
Your comments about B12 are an attempt at diversion. Sure, there are some meat eaters that need to supplement, too, but an entirely plant based diet is deficient in B12. See here:
You may choose to avoid meat because of philosophical, religious, or perceived health reasons. That is fine. But the fact is that humans have been eating meat for a long time, and there are nutritional advantages to it. It is wrong to imply that humans should not eat meat because there is something physiologically wrong about doing so.
Yes, an omnivore is a "flesh eater" - though hopefully not an eater of human flesh.
Really? So an animal that eats eggs and fruit is a herbivore? Of course not, if you looked at a serious definition you'd find that "omnivore" doesn't imply anything about eating flesh foods.
But this is besides the point, to say it once again, "omnivore" is a very general term and tells you nothing specific about an animals diet. The fact that humans are omnivores doesn't mean they are well adapted for flesh foods or a number of other particular foods.
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Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
The main reason that chimps eat relatively little meat appears to be due to the difficulty in catching it and the fact that the food can fight back. Given the opportunity, they do eat it.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say with this,but its like saying that the main reason cows don't eat meat is because they don't have claws. The reasons chimps don't eat more meat are irrelevant, that fact of the matter is that they consume small amounts of meat. As such, using them to justify human meat consumption is strange.
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
Your comments about B12 are an attempt at diversion. Sure, there are some meat eaters that need to supplement, too, but an entirely plant based diet is deficient in B12.
No, my comments were a direct response to your question....I'm sorry that you didn't like that. Its not "some meat eaters", as I said, everyone over 50 is recommended to supplement with b12 because people lose the ability to absorb B12 that is attached to protein:
"Generally, it's best to get vitamins from whole foods. But doctors often suggest fortified foods -- and supplements -- to people over 50. As we age, it's harder for our bodies to absorb vitamin B-12 from food."
So, as I said, the reason for B12 supplementation is our sanitized living environment. Easily absorbed B12 exists in natural soils, waters,etc. A vegan can avoid supplementation by drinking dirty water, eat soil, or heck...their own feces. I don't know about you....but a supplement sounds like the better option.
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
You may choose to avoid meat because of philosophical, religious, or perceived health reasons. That is fine. But the fact is that humans have been eating meat for a long time, and there are nutritional advantages to it. It is wrong to imply that humans should not eat meat because there is something physiologically wrong about doing so.
I'm not talking about myself, I'm talking about the actual science. How long, and to what degree, human ancestors have been consuming meat is not known. We don't even know which hominids were our direct ancestors and which were merely cousins. But as the evidence comes in, it seems that our ancestors ate far more plant-foods that the popular "man the hunter" myths suggest. We also know that more recently, that is over the last 10,000 years or so, the vast majority of people have been subsisting on semi-vegetarian diets. The meat heavy diets practiced currently in the west are a very recent event for Caucasians.
As for nutritional advantages, what are they exactly? Meat (and here I'm referring to mammal meat) is fairly hard to obtain and is relatively nutrient poor, the only advantage it has is that its high in protein but the extra protein wouldn't be needed. Plant-foods supply more than enough protein for humans. If human ancestors hunted it probably was similar to chimps, that is, primarily done to gain status in their community rather than nutritional advantages.
As for it being "wrong" for humans to eat meat, that is the wrong terminology. The question is whether humans are well adapted for meat consumption and there are many reasons to believe we may not be. For example, when you look at the human digestive system there doesn't seem to be any adaptions for meat consumption. When you look at human physiology, again, there doesn't appear to be any adaptations for meat consumption. But, let's say humans aren't well adapted for meat consumption, does that mean its wrong for them to eat meat? No, though it may have health consequences.
I'm not sure why you linked to that website, it suggests red meat consumption is linked to cancer and heart disease.
Really? So an animal that eats eggs and fruit is a herbivore? Of course not, if you looked at a serious definition you'd find that "omnivore" doesn't imply anything about eating flesh foods.
So animals are not "flesh food"? Then what is your definition of "flesh food"? Can you give me a link to a dictionary that explains your definition?
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But this is besides the point, to say it once again, "omnivore" is a very general term and tells you nothing specific about an animals diet. The fact that humans are omnivores doesn't mean they are well adapted for flesh foods or a number of other particular foods.
"Omnivores" eat plants and animals. By definition. You can try to pretend otherwise, but it seems strange to try to redefine the word to suit your personal viewpoint.
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I'm not sure what you're trying to say with this,but its like saying that the main reason cows don't eat meat is because they don't have claws. The reasons chimps don't eat more meat are irrelevant, that fact of the matter is that they consume small amounts of meat. As such, using them to justify human meat consumption is strange.
The reason chimps do not eat more meat is relevant because you are downplaying the fact that they do so. They eat less meat when other more easily obtainable food is available.
You were the one who said other primates do not eat meat. Chimps are primates and they eat meat.
No, my comments were a direct response to your question....I'm sorry that you didn't like that. Its not "some meat eaters", as I said, everyone over 50 is recommended to supplement with b12 because people lose the ability to absorb B12 that is attached to protein:
"Generally, it's best to get vitamins from whole foods. But doctors often suggest fortified foods -- and supplements -- to people over 50. As we age, it's harder for our bodies to absorb vitamin B-12 from food."
So, as I said, the reason for B12 supplementation is our sanitized living environment. Easily absorbed B12 exists in natural soils, waters,etc. A vegan can avoid supplementation by drinking dirty water, eat soil, or heck...their own feces. I don't know about you....but a supplement sounds like the better option.
I agree that eating dirt is not a good idea. Perhaps that is why humans have adapted to getting B12 from animal sources.
B12 deficiency secondary to aging is an entirely different topic. People who have it do so because of absorption problems, not necessarily dietary deficiency.
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I'm not talking about myself, I'm talking about the actual science. How long, and to what degree, human ancestors have been consuming meat is not known. We don't even know which hominids were our direct ancestors and which were merely cousins. But as the evidence comes in, it seems that our ancestors ate far more plant-foods that the popular "man the hunter" myths suggest. We also know that more recently, that is over the last 10,000 years or so, the vast majority of people have been subsisting on semi-vegetarian diets. The meat heavy diets practiced currently in the west are a very recent event for Caucasians.
'Vegetarian, vegan and raw diets can be healthy — likely far healthier than the typical American diet. But to continue to call these diets "natural" for humans, in terms of evolution, is a bit of a stretch, according to two recent, independent studies.
Eating meat and cooking food made us human, the studies suggest, enabling the brains of our prehuman ancestors to grow dramatically over a period of a few million years."
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As for nutritional advantages, what are they exactly? Meat (and here I'm referring to mammal meat) is fairly hard to obtain and is relatively nutrient poor, the only advantage it has is that its high in protein but the extra protein wouldn't be needed. Plant-foods supply more than enough protein for humans. If human ancestors hunted it probably was similar to chimps, that is, primarily done to gain status in their community rather than nutritional advantages.
Vitamins and Minerals
Beef steak contains 93 percent of the daily value for vitamin B12 per serving, 89 percent of the daily value for zinc and 46 percent of the daily value for phosphorus. It also has 36 percent of the daily value for sodium, 41 percent of the daily value for niacin and 37 percent of the daily value for vitamin B6. Additional nutrients in beef steak include 33 percent of the daily value for iron, 20 percent of the daily value for potassium and 24 percent of the daily value for riboflavin.
As for it being "wrong" for humans to eat meat, that is the wrong terminology. The question is whether humans are well adapted for meat consumption and there are many reasons to believe we may not be. For example, when you look at the human digestive system there doesn't seem to be any adaptions for meat consumption. When you look at human physiology, again, there doesn't appear to be any adaptations for meat consumption. But, let's say humans aren't well adapted for meat consumption, does that mean its wrong for them to eat meat? No, though it may have health consequences.
If we were not "adapted" to eat meat, we would not be able to eat it.
I'm not sure why you linked to that website, it suggests red meat consumption is linked to cancer and heart disease.
From the blog above:
" ... why did our ancestors eat meat - and as we have seen above, they certainly did - if it predisposed them to disease? The answer, again, rests in timing.
Except in cases of gross excess and sedentary life styles, these pathologies tend to strike late in life. Specifically, they largely affect post-reproductive (or nearly so) individuals. If you die at 55 from a heart attack but raise ten vigorous, meat-fed offspring, you still have dramatically higher fitness than a vegetarian who lives to 90 but raised five offspring before menopause. Additionally, during the course of human history, "post-reproductive" is a luxury that an incredibly small portion of the population would ever live to see; those disorders would be invisible to natural selection."
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