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Don't they realize that by limiting growth, they actually add to traffic and pollution by forcing students and people who work in Boulder to live outside of Boulder and drive in every day?
PLAN Boulder County, the anti-growth group recently released a policy paper stating that all the in-commuting traffic and resulting greenhouse gas emissions are the problem of the communities where people live, not the problem of Boulder where they work. Officially, the city considers itself an employment center, like downtown Denver, US 36, or the tech center, that will be a destination for surrounding bedroom communities.
All I can say is in Denver this summer I am certainly noticing the impact of all this metro area traffic in terms of air pollution. I really hope this city can evolve in a positive direction, because unlike San Francisco, for example, we are not blessed with ocean winds that blow our pollution away!
OK you said said the population will grow. Lets say the population of an area doubles. So the number of lanes on the freeways are doubled to accommodate the increase. 2 x the population = 2 x the number cars on the freeway and 2 x the number of lanes. Thats the same number of cars per lane. So there is no change in the number of vehicles per lane. But you still have twice as many cars on the road and twice the pollution. Is that really that hard to understand?
Lets say the population of this area doubles. No freeways are widened to accommodate the increase. Twice the population, twice the number of vehicles on the freeway, same number of lanes as now. That's twice the number of vehicles per lane. Twice the number of vehicles in a lane that's already stop and go most of the day? That equals extreme idling of vehicles which has a direct correlation with worsened air pollution! Is that really that hard to understand? If you double freeway capacity and double the number of cars, common sense would tell you that congestion levels will at least remain equal to what they are now. Doing nothing makes everything worse.
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Originally Posted by KaaBoom
Not if people use public transportation.
I think we have already recognized that most of the commuting population in this area doesn't use public transportation! We have also already established that most people commute from suburb to suburb. If I live in Broomfield and work in Northglenn, why would I choose public transit over my personal vehicle? I love the light rail, but it gets me nowhere near my office. Evidently from the congestion here many people here feel the same!
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Originally Posted by KaaBoom
They are not faster, if you are moving stop and go with an average speed or 15 or 20 mph. You just think they are faster. And LA's freeways do not work. They are 100% FAIL. Thats why LA is now building rapid transit, instead of more freeways.
Have you ever been to LA? If you had, you would accept that they're the faster alternative. Try driving from Woodland Hills to Westwood using surface streets or taking the bus! Ha!
If the freeways are 100 percent fail why are they full every day? Why aren't people on the subway, light rail, or bus? Did you hear about carmageddon? That project involves widening the 405 freeway! There are still plans to complete the 710 freeway through the area as well. Seems like your theory is incorrect.
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Originally Posted by KaaBoom
Nonsense. Tell me what law makes growth control illegal. Boulder has done a pretty good job of controlling growth. Unfortunately most everywhere else in CO, growth is ramped out of control.
If I want to move someplace, it is illegal to tell me that I cannot do so. Boulder may have some urban growth boundary, limiting countryside sprawl, but there are no regulations telling potential newcomers that they cannot move there!
I recognize that urban growth boundaries drive up real estate prices, forcing low and middle income people to live miles and miles away! That will definitely control growth, by creating a mini-oligarchy. But you do realize that all of those people who are priced out because of the boundary still drive to get to their jobs, don't you?
Explain yourself out of this one, please!
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Originally Posted by KaaBoom
LA had one of the most extensive rapid transit systems in the world, and it was clean and worked fantastic, until anti-transit mentality people like you, destroyed it to build the freeway hell, that has turned LA into the most congested polluted city in the US. The fact that LA has again changed direction and is now trying to rebuild the rail system that was dismantled decades ago, is proof that those anti-transit policies were a mistake.
I'm not anti-transit. I love the light rail! It would have been nice if LA could have kept its streetcar system with the freeway system it has now. Talk about efficiency!
LA has had a pollution problem since the 1940's. This was way before the streetcar system was torn up and our freeway system was built! The streetcar system wasn't enough to keep LA from driving and from a heinous smog problem from forming.
LA's air has changed drastically and is very rarely super smoggy anymore. We have had a light rail system and a subway system for nearly twenty years now, so your idea that LA just started it's public transit effort is pretty ridiculous and wrong!!
Have you ever been to LA? If you had, you would accept that they're the faster alternative.
Yes I've been to LA, and I don't except that. I avoid going back, because when I was there I found myself spending a lot of money to spend most of my time stuck in traffic, while accomplishing very little.
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Originally Posted by CO_Transplant
If the freeways are 100 percent fail why are they full every day? Why aren't people on the subway, light rail, or bus?
Maybe if you actually tried ridding it, you would know that LA has the third largest transit system (by ridership) in the country.
Total Metro Bus Ridership
Average Weekday Boardings 1,187,869
Total Metro Rail Ridership
Average Weekday Boardings 301,501
If I want to move someplace, it is illegal to tell me that I cannot do so. Boulder may have some urban growth boundary, limiting countryside sprawl, but there are no regulations telling potential newcomers that they cannot move there!
I recognize that urban growth boundaries drive up real estate prices, forcing low and middle income people to live miles and miles away! That will definitely control growth, by creating a mini-oligarchy. But you do realize that all of those people who are priced out because of the boundary still drive to get to their jobs, don't you?
Explain yourself out of this one, please!
No, I don't realize that.
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Originally Posted by CO_Transplant
I'm not anti-transit. I love the light rail!
Yeah, you love for other people to ride light rail, so you can continue to drive your car, without the freeway system becoming totally gridlocked.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CO_Transplant
LA's air has changed drastically and is very rarely super smoggy anymore.
Yeah right, keep telling yourself that while you sit in traffic for hours everyday. Maybe you will actually convince yourself.
Yeah right, keep telling yourself that while you sit in traffic for hours everyday. Maybe you will actually convince yourself.
The air is truly much cleaner than it used to be. I would imagine that's a direct result of car emission regulations (cleaner cars now) than 20 years ago. I remember in 1990, it would smell like bleach outside and if I cleaned my car, within a day there would be a layer of black dust on it.
PLAN Boulder County, the anti-growth group recently released a policy paper stating that all the in-commuting traffic and resulting greenhouse gas emissions are the problem of the communities where people live, not the problem of Boulder where they work. Officially, the city considers itself an employment center, like downtown Denver, US 36, or the tech center, that will be a destination for surrounding bedroom communities.
All I can say is in Denver this summer I am certainly noticing the impact of all this metro area traffic in terms of air pollution. I really hope this city can evolve in a positive direction, because unlike San Francisco, for example, we are not blessed with ocean winds that blow our pollution away!
That's ridiculous! Everyone knows people commute into Boulder because they can't afford to live there. I'm sure a fair number of students commute to school as well. I can see promoting smarter growth, and denser growth, but I don't agree with essentially setting a limit on how many people can live in a city.
The air is truly much cleaner than it used to be. I would imagine that's a direct result of car emission regulations (cleaner cars now) than 20 years ago. I remember in 1990, it would smell like bleach outside and if I cleaned my car, within a day there would be a layer of black dust on it.
Regardless LA is still the most dirty polluted city in the US. A sure fired way for Denver to replace LA on that list would be, if Southern Californians keep flooding into Colorado and bringing their "build more freeways" mentality with them. They will be more then happy to buy a house in Louisville and drive everyday to a job in the Denver Tech Center, on the new ten lane wide I-25. Hell a commute like that would take less then half the time most people in LA speed on the road. Oh and expect Colorado gas prices to skyrocket because of increased demand from all those gas guzzling SUVs the Californian will bring with them.
10 Most Ozone-Polluted Cities 1. Los Angeles-Long Beach-Riverside, Calif.
2. Bakersfield-Delano, Calif.
3. Visalia-Porterville, Calif.
4. Fresno-Madera, Calif.
5. Sacramento-Arden-Arcade-Yuba City, Calif.-Nev.
6. Hanford-Corcoran, Calif.
7. San Diego-Carlsbad-San Marcos, Calif.
8. Houston-Baytown-Huntsville, Texas
9. Merced, Calif.
10. Charlotte-Gastonia-Salisbury, N.C.-S.C.
Regardless LA is still the most dirty polluted city in the US. A sure fired way for Denver to replace LA on that list would be, if Southern Californians keep flooding into Colorado and bringing their "build more freeways" mentality with them. They will be more then happy to buy a house in Louisville and drive everyday to a job in the Denver Tech Center, on the new ten lane wide I-25. Hell a commute like that would take less then half the time most people in LA speed on the road. Oh and expect Colorado gas prices to skyrocket because of increased demand from all those gas guzzling SUVs the Californian will bring with them.
10 Most Ozone-Polluted Cities 1. Los Angeles-Long Beach-Riverside, Calif.
2. Bakersfield-Delano, Calif.
3. Visalia-Porterville, Calif.
4. Fresno-Madera, Calif.
5. Sacramento-Arden-Arcade-Yuba City, Calif.-Nev.
6. Hanford-Corcoran, Calif.
7. San Diego-Carlsbad-San Marcos, Calif.
8. Houston-Baytown-Huntsville, Texas
9. Merced, Calif.
10. Charlotte-Gastonia-Salisbury, N.C.-S.C.
Well, I guess you could set up a booth on the 70 at the UT/CO border and keep people out Denver will never become an "LA". You'd need to have 15 million people move here, and that's not going to happen.
I moved here from CA and I refuse to have a long commute to work. I've had it with sitting in traffic after all those years. And I drive a Prius on the days I don't work from home, so don't blame me for the smog. I drive very little by choice.
Regardless LA is still the most dirty polluted city in the US. A sure fired way for Denver to replace LA on that list would be, if Southern Californians keep flooding into Colorado and bringing their "build more freeways" mentality with them. They will be more then happy to buy a house in Louisville and drive everyday to a job in the Denver Tech Center, on the new ten lane wide I-25. Hell a commute like that would take less then half the time most people in LA speed on the road. Oh and expect Colorado gas prices to skyrocket because of increased demand from all those gas guzzling SUVs the Californian will bring with them.
Fortunately, Denver has enough controlled growth sentiment that I don't ever see I-25 widened to ten lanes*.
Considering the last major highway expansion had transit tied to it, and the only major infrastructure project going on right now is transit, I doubt Denver will ever go freeway crazy like SoCal.
* Well, technically it is ten lanes in spots through southeast Denver. To really give a good idea of how wide a highway is, it should be referred to by how many total lanes it has, not how many are in each direction.
Well, I guess you could set up a booth on the 70 at the UT/CO border and keep people out Denver will never become an "LA". You'd need to have 15 million people move here, and that's not going to happen.
I moved here from CA and I refuse to have a long commute to work. I've had it with sitting in traffic after all those years. And I drive a Prius on the days I don't work from home, so don't blame me for the smog. I drive very little by choice.
Thats fine. I was referring to the Californian "build more freeways" mentality.
I'm not talking about setting up a road block at the Utah State line. I'm just saying that Coloradans shouldn't let Californian migrants dictate Colorado's future transportation policies. Especially when those same policies have already failed so badly in California.
The Denver Metro population has been doubling every 30 years or so, steadily for the last hundred plus years. If nothing is done to control the growth, what reason is there to believe that that same population growth will not continue, and that Denver will become another LA? Denver's population is already where LA was in the 1940s. With the current population growth, the Front Range will become one continues urban area from Ft. Collins to Pueblo, in just another couple of generations. That could easily be 15 million people on the Front Range. And I don't care if I-25 is widened to 20 lanes, it ain't going to be enough to handle all that traffic. Just sayin.
Thats fine. I was referring to the Californian "build more freeways" mentality.
I'm not talking about setting up a road block at the Utah State line. I'm just saying that Coloradans shouldn't let Californian migrants dictate Colorado's future transportation policies. Especially when those same policies have already failed so badly in California.
The Denver Metro population has been doubling every 30 years or so, steadily for the last hundred plus years. If nothing is done to control the growth, what reason is there to believe that that same population growth will not continue, and that Denver will become another LA? Denver's population is already where LA was in the 1940s. With the current population growth, the Front Range will become one continues urban area from Ft. Collins to Pueblo, in just another couple of generations. That could easily be 15 million people on the Front Range. And I don't care if I-25 is widened to 20 lanes, it ain't going to be enough to handle all that traffic. Just sayin.
I think the bigger issue isn't that Denver metro will have 4 million people, but overall world population. The planet can't handle any more billions of people! At some point, "mother nature" will handle things, via famine, disease, or natural disaster.
I personally think that the Front Range won't attract tens of millions of people just because of the climate. People flock to California for the nice winter climate, which we don't have.
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Yeah right, keep telling yourself that while you sit in traffic for hours everyday. Maybe you will actually convince yourself.
Denver will never become an "LA". You'd need to have 15 million people move here, and that's not going to happen. 
