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Some few employers will pay for a whole bachelor's degree. Again, I'd like to see stats.
These graphs are about undergraduate education.
So then there's no proof GI's starting later in life has any effect on graduation.
Lastly undergraduate education at least in a major metropolitan area means little. You generally have to have a masters or a professional degree to get any job with benefits or that allows you acceptance into the middle class. Said students are OLDER students and the fact that graduate students aren't in these stats severely distorts and restricts them.
Which people don't see them as ideal jobs? Many people do see them as ideal jobs, obviously. And those 'trade jobs' are not all the same; they are all over the map in terms of skill level, usefulness, safety, demand, etc. But you generalize those jobs as being inferior jobs that 'most' people view as being not ideal. What's the basis for your position? Personal opinion? Bias?
Put it like this, what person would continue doing their trade job if they hit the jack pot with the lottery. Very few I'd wager.
Yes most people don't view them as dream jobs. And you know it.
So then there's no proof GI's starting later in life has any effect on graduation.
Lastly undergraduate education at least in a major metropolitan area means little. You generally have to have a masters or a professional degree to get any job with benefits or that allows you acceptance into the middle class. Said students are OLDER students and the fact that graduate students aren't in these stats severely distorts and restricts them.
Yes and no. The GI rate is somewhat less than those who start by 20. From the link: "By comparison, the four-year graduation rate for younger, non-veteran students was 59 percent in 2011, according to the National Center for Education Statistics." That's about 10% lower. Also, I could not find any stats about how many GIs even start college after discharge, which is another important factor.
I would remind you that undergrad is the basis for a graduate degree. There is no distortion or restriction here.
For as much as this gets said on this board and elsewhere, no one has ever demonstrated any proof that it's true. The latest buzzwords are "college or career-ready". Despite what people say, there other curricula in high schools than "college prep". Community colleges have tons of certificate courses for those who do not wish to pursue college. IMO, guidance counselors should encourage kids to "reach for the stars". If they only hit the moon, well, so be it. I see no point in discouraging students from achieving the highest they possibly can.
I also see no point in discouraging a student from pursing highly ranked colleges/universities, public or private. The private colleges often offer generous financial aid packages, making their costs comparable to state schools. For many decades, about 50% of entering college students drop out. This number seems to be independent of just how many actually start.
The average student debt is about $35K. That is roughly the price of a new car. Many parents think nothing of borrowing money to buy a car for their kid(s), or of their kids doing so, but freak at the thought of that much college debt.
I also don't get this glorification of "the trades" with no evidence to back it up. That's not to say I think such work is beneath me or my kids.
The thing about the student loan debt is that it can't be discharged in BK. If TSHTF and you lose your job, etc., you can put the car in the BK and send it back. With a student loan, you really can't do anything with it other than try to get a hardship deferral or something.
62.5% of HS graduates attempt some college directly after high school. Not to mention all the people that go when they're older.
There are atrocious drop out rates that no one talks about. At most state schools with some kind of admissions policy it's between 25 and 40%. At community colleges and the like it's 60-70%. That's where the real problem lies - with people that rack up mid-- figure debt but with no degree to show for it.
Yes and no. The GI rate is somewhat less than those who start by 20. From the link: "By comparison, the four-year graduation rate for younger, non-veteran students was 59 percent in 2011, according to the National Center for Education Statistics." That's about 10% lower. Also, I could not find any stats about how many GIs even start college after discharge, which is another important factor.
I would remind you that undergrad is the basis for a graduate degree. There is no distortion or restriction here.
Meaning if there are not stats on certain aspects of the picture, you have incomplete information. Also someone mentioned that 62 percent of students attempt college after high school, but huge numbers drop out. No one should use these stats when making their own decisions to go or not to go college at any age.
62.5% of HS graduates attempt some college directly after high school. Not to mention all the people that go when they're older.
There are atrocious drop out rates that no one talks about. At most state schools with some kind of admissions policy it's between 25 and 40%. At community colleges and the like it's 60-70%. That's where the real problem lies - with people that rack up mid-- figure debt but with no degree to show for it.
This is an excellent point!
Half of the students that attempt to earn a college degree don't finish and that's double trouble for the folks that don't finish and have student loan debt to pay off. Student loans and no degree to show for it really sucks.
My school (Georgia State) has 54% of first time freshman graduating in 6 years. Only 23% complete their degree in 4 years. I think nationwide it's 30% for 4 years and 51% for 6 years.
It's sad that only a little bit over half of college students will get a degree in 6 years. It's sad that all those efforts go to waste when a student drops out of college and leaves the university empty handed with no degree and no potential to get out of a dead end poverty wage job.
This is an excellent point!
Half of the students that attempt to earn a college degree don't finish and that's double trouble for the folks that don't finish and have student loan debt to pay off. Student loans and no degree to show for it really sucks.
My school (Georgia State) has 54% of first time freshman graduating in 6 years. Only 23% complete their degree in 4 years. I think nationwide it's 30% for 4 years and 51% for 6 years.
It's sad that only a little bit over half of college students will get a degree in 6 years. It's sad that all those efforts go to waste when a student drops out of college and leaves the university empty handed with no degree and no potential to get out of a dead end poverty wage job.
In my classes at my CC, the drop/fail rate is around 50%. The vast majority of those are drops, I'd say more than 2/3rds of that number.
I've done everything to make my classes accessible and easily passed. I couple years ago I switched to take-home exams and open book/open note quizzes. Course material is available on the website for review on demand. The trade-off for all that is the significant amount of reading they have to do, as well as participation. When I made those changes, I thought that would mean everyone would get A's, but to my surprise there was a marginal effect on the pass rates, maybe a 5-10% improvement, and negligible effect on A and B percentage.
For those who say online is the answer, I also do online classes and the drop/fail rate is even worse there.
I'm not alone in this since I hear instructors around the country complain when I go to conferences. At some point, people have to knuckle down, work, and attend class. Another problem may be that student reading ability seems to be on the decline. Their reading comprehension level is often quite low... I don't have time to re-teach them how to read.
Last edited by redguard57; 03-21-2016 at 06:09 PM..
This is an excellent point!
Half of the students that attempt to earn a college degree don't finish and that's double trouble for the folks that don't finish and have student loan debt to pay off. Student loans and no degree to show for it really sucks.
My school (Georgia State) has 54% of first time freshman graduating in 6 years. Only 23% complete their degree in 4 years. I think nationwide it's 30% for 4 years and 51% for 6 years.
It's sad that only a little bit over half of college students will get a degree in 6 years. It's sad that all those efforts go to waste when a student drops out of college and leaves the university empty handed with no degree and no potential to get out of a dead end poverty wage job.
I understand why there is this huge backlash towards college. Why ruin people's lives by getting them into massive debt if they never even get a degree? At that point not only would they have been better off working a blue collar job, they might have been better off at retail. We do need to be honest that not everyone needs a college degree, and if you don't like academic stuff you should not go.
I understand why there is this huge backlash towards college. Why ruin people's lives by getting them into massive debt if they never even get a degree? At that point not only would they have been better off working a blue collar job, they might have been better off at retail. We do need to be honest that not everyone needs a college degree, and if you don't like academic stuff you should not go.
As far as I can tell, everyone agrees with this. College is NOT for everyone. There are other paths that are better fits for some kids. I don't know anyone who thinks a kid who hates academics should be forced to attend college. And as you pointed out, attending but not graduating gets kids in debt that is then very hard to payoff without the bump in earnings a degree provides.
Where I disagree is with the folks (and there are some) who think no one needs a college degree. That any money spent on a college education is a waste and that a HS degree is enough education. These folks will normally concede that anyone who plans on being a doctor, lawyer or CPA needs college, but it's a waste for all others.
The reasons I disagree are these: 1. Some kids like the academic challenge and value the opportunity to continue their educations 2. Many jobs now require a degree and if you don't have one you won't even get the chance to interview. It's been like this for a while and it's not going to change and 3. No matter how you spin the numbers (earnings, unemployment) college grads come out on top. Sure their are outliers (HS grads who do extremely well and college grads who do extremely poorly), but in general a college grad will out earn a HS grad and experience fewer and shorter periods of unemployment.
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