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college football's structure changed and only conference champs could play for a national championship? (I'm not suggesting that the major conferences would create such a set up....just imagine they would). Of course I'm suggesting here it would have to be full conference membership, including football, not the current set up that ND has with the ACC. It might be tournament of 4 conference champs or perhaps 8, or even 6,if conference champs were seeded and four of the six teams played each other and then went on to a round of four).
1. would it choose to hold on to it independent status and be content to play in a bowl game but never to enter the post-season tournament?
2. would they drop the sport?
3. would they drop down to mid-major competition?
4. would they consider playing at the level of prestige conferences that aren't major: i.e., Ivy UAA?
5. would they then join a conference?
6. and, assuming that the Big Ten, ACC, Big 12, and even possibly the Big East were still standing, if the choice was among those three, which one would they choose? or would they possibly choose another major conference?
It is pretty obvious, and has been for sometime, that ND wants to be aligned with the ACC in case of emergency. If ND was forced, and I mean really super forced, they would probably jump into the waiting arms of the ACC. I don't think that is a secret anymore.
It is pretty obvious, and has been for sometime, that ND wants to be aligned with the ACC in case of emergency. If ND was forced, and I mean really super forced, they would probably jump into the waiting arms of the ACC. I don't think that is a secret anymore.
i think that alignment serves them the way the Big East did: a place for all sports except football which gets to keep its independence. And, as a bonus, ND gets 5 games vs. ACC teams, which should help scheduling.
However, the ACC doesn't really give ND what it would like out of the East Coast. The Irish have always hung in limbo between its home in the midwest and all that Catholic support in the northeast. The Big Ten, of course, never would have given ND the deal that either the Big East or the ACC gave them. The B10 would have required full membership.
So if full membership were to now become the requirement, where could ND go but the Big Ten? The old Big East, through its basketball schools, gave Notre Dame the connection it wanted with the major markets in the northeastern seaboard: NYC (St. John's), Boston (BC), Philly (Nova), and DC (G'town).
With the restructuring of conferences, the ACC can only offer one market (Boston through BC) while the Big Ten gives the Irish NYC (Rutgers), Phila (Penn St), and Bal/Wsh (UMd) along with the traditional home base of the Big Ten with fierce rivalries with U-M, MSU, Purdue, great match ups vs. OSU, PSU, Neb, and reconnection with an old, old rival, NU (which btw, makes a wonderful Chicago connection for the Irish, Chicago being the most important connection ND has of any city with ND located on what might be considered the outer fringe of Chicagoland).
If forced to join a conference, I think ND would jump at the Big Ten. It is literally the only one that can deliver the markets it wants in the midwest and the northeast.
i think that alignment serves them the way the Big East did: a place for all sports except football which gets to keep its independence. And, as a bonus, ND gets 5 games vs. ACC teams, which should help scheduling.
However, the ACC doesn't really give ND what it would like out of the East Coast. The Irish have always hung in limbo between its home in the midwest and all that Catholic support in the northeast. The Big Ten, of course, never would have given ND the deal that either the Big East or the ACC gave them. The B10 would have required full membership.
So if full membership were to now become the requirement, where could ND go but the Big Ten? The old Big East, through its basketball schools, gave Notre Dame the connection it wanted with the major markets in the northeastern seaboard: NYC (St. John's), Boston (BC), Philly (Nova), and DC (G'town).
With the restructuring of conferences, the ACC can only offer one market (Boston through BC) while the Big Ten gives the Irish NYC (Rutgers), Phila (Penn St), and Bal/Wsh (UMd) along with the traditional home base of the Big Ten with fierce rivalries with U-M, MSU, Purdue, great match ups vs. OSU, PSU, Neb, and reconnection with an old, old rival, NU (which btw, makes a wonderful Chicago connection for the Irish, Chicago being the most important connection ND has of any city with ND located on what might be considered the outer fringe of Chicagoland).
If forced to join a conference, I think ND would jump at the Big Ten. It is literally the only one that can deliver the markets it wants in the midwest and the northeast.
I think you are correct. Only because of the additions of Maryland and Rutgers.
Before that I think they would have gone ACC as full members if forced.
Thing is, no playoff will be setup that excludes Notre Dame. It would not be legitimate.
And I see no reason why the people deciding these things want ND to join a conference. It doesn't make a difference. I can't see the SEC, Big 12 or Pac-12 wanting to force ND into a rival conference under any circumstances. You normally don't give the competition the best brand in town if you are looking out for your own teams.
Just like the Big Ten would never want ND as full members of the ACC and vice versa.
I look at this way. If Florida was independent would the Big Ten or PAC-12 force it to join a conference knowing it would be SEC or ACC? No way. If Ohio State was indy would the SEC force it so they would join the Big Ten? Not a chance.
I think you are correct. Only because of the additions of Maryland and Rutgers.
Before that I think they would have gone ACC as full members if forced.
I have to wonder, Ohio: were Rutgers and UMd designed to bring Notre Dame into the fold? The Big Ten and ND have played a dance over joining for a long time. I don't think the official word really tells you what goes on behind the scene.
The official word for the Big Ten now seems to be "we don't need Notre Dame and we are not actively pursuing them". Behind the scenes, I suspect the Big Ten would consider ND to be a major prize. Look, I understand that Rutgers and Maryland expanded that precious "footprint" to the east and gave access more access to that huge northeast market that Penn State alone could do. But I have to wonder if Notre Dame was a factor for the conference. the B10 has now packaged itself with a strong midwest base where South Bend is virtually in the center and a strong off shoot in the northeast that appeals to the Irish's east coast leanings.
as for ND itself, I suspect their strategy is simple: prolong "independence" as long as it is feasible and doesn't close off opportunities to land the type of conference slot they would need when conference membership became a necessity.
"14" is not a stopping point for a conference, be it B10 or SEC or any others. Mathematics with the addition of two gives you the magical number of 16, that highly desirable power of 2. There is no question that the major conferences are heading towards 16. There probably will be 4 of them. The B10, SEC, and Pac 12 have a lock. The last slot? who knows. Obviously the leading contenders would be the B12 or ACC. But both are vulnerable. If ND sees the Big Ten finding another way of getting to 16 without them and starts the process of doing so, ND could easily see this as the time to dump independence since it won't work any longer and join the B10 before the slot(s) are gone. Look, the Irish are not going to the SEC or Pac 12....they are not physically or emotionally a part of either region (they get their fill of the Pac 12 with yearly matchups with SC and Stanford).....so the B10 becomes the only real alternative, and a damned good one at that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioRules
Thing is, no playoff will be setup that excludes Notre Dame. It would not be legitimate.
Yep! That one makes sense. But whose fault is it? Seems to me that its the Irish who have created the situation, not all the other schools that are playing by the common rule: conference membership. It's sort of like (and I realize this one is a streeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetch) the Yankees deciding to play an independent schedule because they are, after all, the Yankees and schedule all 29 other MLB franchises each season......and then expecting MLB from saying, "Yep", you can do that and still be part of the fold.
The question is: how much is any school "needed"? The two that most come to mind are ND and Texas. And I can fully embrace why Texas A&M decided to get out of the ridiculous UT shadow and join the SEC as an equal among power house schools; the move was brilliant, even as it killed a great rivalry and A&M's connection with the southwest. Nobody rigs their position like the Longhorns and the Irish.
I don't want to post a big novel on why ND won't ever join the b1g. But I do wonder about this market nonsense.
How on gods green earth does Rutgers bring the NY market for Notre Dame?
ND is 50x more popular there already. ND games aren't going to dissapear from TV. ND will play syracuse every handful of years in Yankee stadium most likely. Maybe I'm missing something, so please explain exactly how having Rutgers in the same conference would help Notre Dame even one bit?
If they have a much bigger fanbase there now, which no one is going to argue ..and haven't played Rutgers in football EVER(ok 1 game @ rutgers in their 100some year history)...why do they need them now? Because their volleyball team won't play villanova anymore? really?
And the D.C. market? ND has many rivalries. The most important 2 to them, USC and Navy. Those are the 2 that will never go away.
Anyone want to guess where Navy plays their games?
Now, lets get back to the question why exactly would ND need Maryland to deliver the D.C. market? They don't, not one bit.
ND has a ton of secondary rivalries..they have actually played GT as many times as they have played Michigan..and they already have ditched Michigan (which if you know the history of michigan toward ND, you can't blame ND). Purdue and MSU are the main big 10 ones..pitt is their main ACC one, those 3 teams rounding out their top 5 most played games. (after USC and Navy). I seriously doubt they would lose any sleep over any of the 3.
BC is an important rivalry for them now, they play it almost annually. But they only played 3 times until the early 90's, about the same time they quit playing Indiana. Iowa they have also played a ton but haven't bothered with them in over 40 years. NW is up there in total games, but they quit playing them too.
I don't want to post a big novel on why ND won't ever join the b1g. But I do wonder about this market nonsense.
How on gods green earth does Rutgers bring the NY market for Notre Dame?
ND is 50x more popular there already. ND games aren't going to dissapear from TV. ND will play syracuse every handful of years in Yankee stadium most likely. Maybe I'm missing something, so please explain exactly how having Rutgers in the same conference would help Notre Dame even one bit?
If they have a much bigger fanbase there now, which no one is going to argue ..and haven't played Rutgers in football EVER(ok 1 game @ rutgers in their 100some year history)...why do they need them now? Because their volleyball team won't play villanova anymore? really?
And the D.C. market? ND has many rivalries. The most important 2 to them, USC and Navy. Those are the 2 that will never go away.
Anyone want to guess where Navy plays their games?
Now, lets get back to the question why exactly would ND need Maryland to deliver the D.C. market? They don't, not one bit.
ND has a ton of secondary rivalries..they have actually played GT as many times as they have played Michigan..and they already have ditched Michigan (which if you know the history of michigan toward ND, you can't blame ND). Purdue and MSU are the main big 10 ones..pitt is their main ACC one, those 3 teams rounding out their top 5 most played games. (after USC and Navy). I seriously doubt they would lose any sleep over any of the 3.
BC is an important rivalry for them now, they play it almost annually. But they only played 3 times until the early 90's, about the same time they quit playing Indiana. Iowa they have also played a ton but haven't bothered with them in over 40 years. NW is up there in total games, but they quit playing them too.
i'm not thrilled by the Rutgers and Maryland moves, but mainly due to the level of competition, particularly Rutgers. However, Rutgers does bring the NY market into play for the Big Ten because a sizable portion of the NYC metro area (and thus broadcasting market) is in NJ.
I think you underestimate the importance of the B10 rivalries for ND; they are among the most imortant ones they have. they are in the heart of B10 country. Purdue is in-state and a long time rival. MSU goes way, way back. U-M has been a classic series. Every time ND has played OSU, it has been big for both teams. And ND has other long standing rivals other than U-M, MSU, and Purdue although they haven't scheduled them regularly recently like those three. Northwestern is coming back to ND's schedule in a few years. Iowa, Illinois, and Wisconsin have had many match ups with the Irish. The only rivalry in the ACC that comes close to the B10 rivalries for ND is BC due to the Catholic connection. As I said, ND has an incredibly strong connection to the region. No city comes close to the importance of Chicago to the Irish (no, I don't think that NY comes close); South Bend is basically on the fringe areas of Chicagoland. And Chicago is as B10 as it gets.
You bring up a valid point about Rutgers not doing anything great for ND, but I think you may have missed my main point about the northeast. It is a region that was coveted by ND (along with the midwest) which made their move into Big East basketball understandable. The ACC which picked up teams from the sagging Big East looked like it might have a lock on the northeast (with the exception of what Penn State does for the conference), but the Big Ten, by acquiring UMd and Rutgers have teams in 4 of the major cities' markets in the northeast (NYC, Philly, Balt, Wash) exclusively while the ACC only has one (Boston).
so, yes, I do think the ACC's appeal to ND if it came to joining a conference full force with football included has a weakened position. In essence, ND has little in common with the region, particularly in its southern base and neither Pitt, Syracuse, or BC offer the penetration of the region the way PSU, UMd, and Rutgers do from a location point of view.
Keep something else in mind here. You framed the argument that Rutgers and UMd don't deliver the markets I suggested. But your analysis doesn't match up with the Big Ten Conference's and there is no question that they have researched and have a better handle on this issue than either you or I. Why did the conference take Rutgers and UMd? On the surface, they are mediocre football programs, at best and Rutgers may well not even have risen to the level of mediocre. There is only one reason the B10 acquired these schools: market. They saw them as a penetration into the major markets of the northeast. Indeed, the only expansion the Big Ten took on that didn't have markets as an important part of its base is Nebraska. They took Nebraska on the basis of its marquis status as a football program; demographically, Nebraska offers virtually nothing. Sure the Cornhusker fans are rabid and support is exceedingly strong state wide (arguably no state supports its state u. in football the way Nebraska does), but the population is negligible.
There is one and only one conference that ND has ever negotiated with for full membership and that's the Big Ten; and they have done so a number of times. If they have to go the route of a conference, the B10 would be the one they want. There was plenty of support in the ND in the administration for joining the B10 in the late 90's; it was a close call to stay independent. ND definitely wants to be in the CIC, which is the academic consortium of Big Ten schools and UChicago.
Well most of those points aren't based in fact, and I don't really agree with.
Especially the "I think you underestimate the importance of the B10 rivalries for ND; they are among the most imortant ones they have."
The fact that going forward, ND is commited to 5 ACC games and ~1 big 10 game a year kind of stalls the debate with a clear winner. Notre Dame doesn't agree with you either, or they wouldn't have kick Michigan to the curb, started putting 2 year hiatus' in their MSU series instead of playing every year. You can think and hope one thing, but when they are doing the exact opposite, you have to concede the point.
They are basicly in a conference now as far as scheduling goes. 5 ACC games+USC+Navy+Stanford= 8 games.
For a team that prefers to be in the b1g, they sure are putting them in the rear view mirror. They could still play 5 games against them if they wanted, but obviously they aren't important to notre dame. Thats not my opinion vs your opinion, thats Notre Dames opinion.
And rutgers/md had nothing to do with notre dame, and if you believe the rumblings out of an unhappy valley..a lot to do with the wandering eyes of a disgruntled Penn State. That and the hope to get a surcharge from the huge populations for the next 10 years or so.
The fact that going forward, ND is commited to 5 ACC games and ~1 big 10 game a year kind of stalls the debate with a clear winner. Notre Dame doesn't agree with you either, or they wouldn't have kick Michigan to the curb, started putting 2 year hiatus' in their MSU series instead of playing every year. You can think and hope one thing, but when they are doing the exact opposite, you have to concede the point.
i hardly concede the point. yes, they are going forward with their deal with the ACC. and it makes perfect sense given that ND still believes it can hold out on its independent status. The ACC deal was a great one for ND. It gave them 5 ACC teams on their schedule which is appreciable; this is an excellent set up for ND. With expanded conferences, there are fewer and fewer dates available for scheduling for the Irish past the first 3 weeks of the season. With those 5 games and with the commitment to play at least one game in California every year in Palo Alto or LA (thus both USC and Stanford being automatic), I can fully understand why under the current situation that ND would pull back the number of games it plays against B10 opponents.
What is salient here is that the Big Ten would never, ever offer Notre Dame any form of conditional membership. If that were not the case and the Big Ten offered ND the same sort of deal that the ACC did, ND would have jumped at it in a heart beat. And for the record, it isnt just the B10 that never would have offered the deal that the ACC gave to Notre Dame. Two other conferences would never go for taking a school, no matter what its marquis value, on a conditional basis: the SEC and the Pac 12.
As I mentioned before, safak......those three conferences will be there if the expected set up of 4 super conferences takes place. They have more strength than the ACC and the B12 and at this point, it would be hard to envision what that fourth slot would be. It might very well be a combination of B12 and ACC teams.
ND is perfectly happy to get this great set up with the ACC. It is not an issue. It becomes an issue only if conference membership is required for a post season tournament. At that point, when ND has to choose at conference for complete membership is when it goes to the B10.
In the modern era, there are 3 power conferences; they stand above the rest. They're the only ones that never lost a member during this era because of their strength (I don't consider the time when Tulane and Ga. Tech left the SEC to be this era). These are the type of conferences ND would want if it were going for full membership.
Let me ask you a question, safak: are you seriously suggesting that if ND was going to go into a conference with full membership as an equal partner and with football a part of the deal that they would choose the ACC over the B10?
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