Cleveland Development Discussions (Euclid, Brunswick, Jackson: bad areas, mayoral, Hispanic)

[Kamms]

Originally Posted by j_ws

I had heard offhand mentions that maybe the mall would be restored to the original design or something along those lines.


I don't actually know if that's a plan. I was just curious.


As for TOD, you can center it around buses. It doesn't need to be rail.

Also why does so much of your argument hinge on the idea that Black residents don't want nice things and transportation?

Constant stigmatization of bus riders is only going to further block positive growth. I don't ride the bus nearly as much as the Red Line, but it's always been a genuinely pleasant experience save for when I missed a transfer.

Because Cleveland is a black run and high poverty rate town, not that they don't want nice things, but they don't want the white suburban college educated doing yoga on PS while their bus has to circle the square for an extra minute. It's all about power and running things; look at the RTA, same thing despite Calabrese being in charge-a bastion of patronage and racial politics. Apologies if anyone is offended by reality.

Not saying any of this is good or bad, just reality.

Constant stigmatization of bus riders, as you call it, may end if, to use your term, there is a ''socioeconomic'' diversity; currently, there isn't.

[tribecavsbrowns]

Originally Posted by j_ws

I had heard offhand mentions that maybe the mall would be restored to the original design or something along those lines.


I don't actually know if that's a plan. I was just curious. There were these proposals, but I think they're all from the construction of the convention center:
Winter on the Mall? Designers of the medical mart and convention center are coming up with plans | cleveland.com
LMN Architects will propose sloping the downtown Cleveland Mall to create a dramatic new convention center entry | cleveland.com


As for TOD, you can center it around buses. It doesn't need to be rail.

Also why does so much of your argument hinge on the idea that Black residents don't want nice things and transportation?

Constant stigmatization of bus riders is only going to further block positive growth. I don't ride the bus nearly as much as the Red Line, but it's always been a genuinely pleasant experience save for when I missed a transfer.

I'm sorry, I just don't see any weight to this statement. Yes, maybe stigmatization of bus riders is wrong or unfair, but what the hell kind of "positive growth" is being "blocked" by inconveniencing a demographic that has so little purchasing power? I get it, I sound callous. But money matters. That's what Kamms means when he says "the demographic isn't there" for TOD in Cleveland.

[Kamms]

Originally Posted by Kamms

Part of the problem is that the residents of public housing think they own their homes. They are already being placed in suburbs, ie Fairview Park, Lakewood etc. Lots of armed robberies going on now in areas that never had these issues. They need to help themselves instead of the one-way conversation about how long it takes to get to their jobs. I don't think many of these residents have full time traditional jobs if they are in public housing.

to update the ''new'' crime with the potential to kill development in a Cleveland neighborhood; 4 people shot at the ''Red Bar'' 16700 Lorain Avenue, the heart of Kamms Corners. This place used to be ''Paddy Rock''. Not many Irish hanging out there anymore.

This area was/is heart of cop-land Cleveland. Cops and other city workers are leaving this once stable bastion of middle class Cleveland. The shooter is a thug from, of all places, Euclid. Not good...this area is changing as the inner-city Cleveland disease spreads. Reason why I refer to the West Side of Cleveland as the ''New East Side".

[j_ws]

Originally Posted by tribecavsbrowns

I'm sorry, I just don't see any weight to this statement. Yes, maybe stigmatization of bus riders is wrong or unfair, but what the hell kind of "positive growth" is being "blocked" by inconveniencing a demographic that has so little purchasing power? I get it, I sound callous. But money matters. That's what Kamms means when he says "the demographic isn't there" for TOD in Cleveland.

I mean in terms of growing ridership. If everyone just repeatedly puts down transit riders as these terrifying, awful people then of course more people with more means aren't going to start utilizing the service. That's what I mean.

There is some demand for TOD. We're seeing it in Little Italy and in the EcoVillage (which they are billing as TOD even though it really isn't) in Detroit-Shoreway.

Originally Posted by Kamms

to update the ''new'' crime with the potential to kill development in a Cleveland neighborhood; 4 people shot at the ''Red Bar'' 16700 Lorain Avenue, the heart of Kamms Corners. This place used to be ''Paddy Rock''. Not many Irish hanging out there anymore.

This area was/is heart of cop-land Cleveland. Cops and other city workers are leaving this once stable bastion of middle class Cleveland. The shooter is a thug from, of all places, Euclid. Not good...this area is changing as the inner-city Cleveland disease spreads. Reason why I refer to the West Side of Cleveland as the ''New East Side".

The bar is being shut down as a nuisance property per a letter from the councilman.

[Clevelander216]

Originally Posted by Kamms

Reason why I refer to the West Side of Cleveland as the ''New East Side".

While I can see why you would say this with the changing dynamics on the west side, it's a bit of an overreaction though. The west side is nowhere near as bad as the majority of the east side; completely different worlds. The west side DOES have it's fair (and growing) share of crap neighborhoods though, which you are alluding to. It's really strange how the core of the city is growing and becoming a hot spot, driving the demand and pricing for housing WAY up; and that is also spreading to the near west neighborhoods. I really wonder how sustainable this growth of downtown is and if it will start spreading further out into the real crime ridden areas. It's almost like reverse white flight.

[j_ws]

Originally Posted by Clevelander216

It's almost like reverse white flight.

That's more or less exactly what it is.

I think you're going to start seeing the west side neighborhoods gentrify more and more rapidly as Detroit-Shoreway Development Corp continues to eat up the other CDCs and create a giant service area. Cudell Improvement is the next to go and they've basically become so inactive that they actually stymie development. I think you'll see the West Boulevard area start to change really quickly. My entire block has gone from having five vacant houses to one in less than a year and a few places are starting to break the six-figure listing price threshold.

[Kamms]

Originally Posted by Clevelander216

While I can see why you would say this with the changing dynamics on the west side, it's a bit of an overreaction though. The west side is nowhere near as bad as the majority of the east side; completely different worlds. The west side DOES have it's fair (and growing) share of crap neighborhoods though, which you are alluding to. It's really strange how the core of the city is growing and becoming a hot spot, driving the demand and pricing for housing WAY up; and that is also spreading to the near west neighborhoods. I really wonder how sustainable this growth of downtown is and if it will start spreading further out into the real crime ridden areas. It's almost like reverse white flight.

This is, as you state, what I am alluding to: the current west side is reminiscent of what the old east side was like. Decent neighborhoods with growing ''crap'' neighborhoods that, as we all know, declined to the state of war-torn, hollowed out, areas of despair. The same pattern is happening on the west side now.

Chicago is a prime example of core strength, neighborhoods declining. It is reverse white flight and it is happening in Cleveland to a degree. Downtown, OC, D-S, UC, Tremont, and some other areas are seeing seeds of stable growth. The momentum is growing, or so it seems.

The ''New East Side'' point is not an overreaction at all. It's real and is happening; the middle class is on the decline.

The PS/bus lane issue is a good example of the clash of class/race in Cleveland with the gentrification backdrop. Why do you think the ''Brelo verdict'' protesters targeted E 4th Street?

[j_ws]

Cleveland's best case scenario is that the population can totally stabilize and then just concentrate into healthy areas.

"Smart-shrinkage" has yet to be fully embraces by the massed (residents in Detroit rallied against it), but I think it's a worthwhile strategy that could benefit places like Cleveland. Ultimately, I doubt the city will ever be big enough to stabilize the far-out areas like Union-Lee-Miles.

I think Buckeye-Shaker will start to stabilize quicker. They're getting some good infill around St Luke's. Hopefully Larchmere keeps doing well. Glenville is probably going to see a change almost overnight. There's a lot of housing stock intact and it already has the East Blvd and Wade Park Ave sections that are stable and/or growing in value. Hough is prime infill territory because of it's location and relative emptiness. The biggest obstacles in those areas have been the councilmen being so vehemently anti-development that it's come back around to hurting the residents they want to protect. I think Forest Hills could go in a number of directions depending on what happens to East Cleveland, Glenville, and the Collinwoods (North will probably keep growing, I'd say).

On the West Side, I think you'll see Cudell and lower Detroit-Shoreway change together, upper D-S and Ohio City will become almost wholly exclusive markets, and Brooklyn Centre will probably grow a bit (Knez has already wandered into the neighborhood with his infill). Slavic Village is turning itself around and I think their CDC has the foresight to achieve a lot there. I think the Jefferson/Westown areas will kind of stagnate and be at the mercy of their neighbors. I think Kamm's will stay nice enough, but honestly once you start getting out into West Park you start hitting the same issues you had with the East Side where we just don't necessarily have the population to maintain that level of urban sprawl. I do think the westward-moving crime waves will start to die down as the gentrifying neighborhoods start settling down.

[bjimmy24]

The only comfort I take is that the core actually is seeing a real influx of educated people with professional careers. We are in a hole because we have so so so many uneducated people without jobs who aren't really looking either. It will take time for those people to either a) move elsewhere or b) turn their lives around. Hard to do that when half the population thinks you're incapable of anything. But anyway, the point is that this is not all that unusual. Most cities have always had strong cores and slums on the outskirts. The post war suburbanization was a very strange thing. So now yes we are looking at potentially a thriving downtown/OhioCity/other nearby neighborhoods, then an intermediate wasteland, and then nice suburbs on both the east and west sides. Hopefully over time the slums will be less dangerous ghettos and more lower middle class people trying to work their way up. I don't think this is going to happen anytime soon though, save for radical changes in policy.

[andrew61]

Originally Posted by bjimmy24

I had visions of Public Square as a kind of Boston Public Garden. Didn't really turn into that exactly, but was good enough with a cafe there, spot for performances and a redone landscape. But that street running through the middle kills it. Should have been one unified park all along.

That's what I've been thinking all along. If they didn't want bus traffic going right through the Square, why didn't they just get rid of the roadway like they did with Ontario Street?

A Cleveland friend of mine, who's very familiar with Boston, is of the opinion that the Public Square redo was an attempt to emulate Boston Common, but doesn't work well in that regard because there's just not enough room for that type of park.

I loved the photos of the redone Public Square I saw on the internet... but the first time I went downtown and saw it in person, I was totally underwhelmed.

#missingChicago