RTA: What's good, bad, and improvable (Cleveland, Madison: rent, neighborhoods, university)

[usroute10]

Originally Posted by btownboss4

Still seems like a huge drop (on pace for almost a 30% drop in 3 years) if the cities population is truly stagnating.

I wonder what form of transportation are all of these former transit riders using now? Were these all "choice" riders who own their own car and just decided to use it instead of the bus? If a lot of these people who have stopped using public transit are low-income and can only afford a hooptie that breaks down often, then how are these poor folks getting around?

[andrew61]

Originally Posted by october2007

Just talked to a new woman in my building who said she is going to have to get a car...I said I use the bus and she said it's too expensive. So...if many people feel that way that might have something to do with the declining ridership.

Now that, to me, sounds off the wall. Cars are much more expensive than public transit... monthly payments, insurance, gas, maintenance and repairs every time you turn around, annual license plate renewal fees, parking... the list goes on.

In Cleveland, there are many disadvantages to using public transit vs. driving... but expense isn't one of them.

[bjimmy24]

I think to some degree (though I have no idea how much), a growing population downtown and in Ohio City, Detroit Shoreway, Tremont probably cuts down on public transit a bit. Living in those central areas is a lot more walkable than elsewhere and extremely bike able. I just know that if I lived in Ohio City and worked downtown, I'd never take public transit unless it were raining or blizarding or something. Otherwise, I vastly prefer to bike.

[october2007]

Originally Posted by andrew61

Now that, to me, sounds off the wall. Cars are much more expensive than public transit... monthly payments, insurance, gas, maintenance and repairs every time you turn around, annual license plate renewal fees, parking... the list goes on.

In Cleveland, there are many disadvantages to using public transit vs. driving... but expense isn't one of them.

Well that's what she said but I would think a car would be more expensive...have never owned one.

[btownboss4]

Originally Posted by andrew61

Now that, to me, sounds off the wall. Cars are much more expensive than public transit... monthly payments, insurance, gas, maintenance and repairs every time you turn around, annual license plate renewal fees, parking... the list goes on.

In Cleveland, there are many disadvantages to using public transit vs. driving... but expense isn't one of them.

here is the thing if you travel out of the city often you need a car anyway so those macro "having a car" costs don't go away but its Transit Fare<= Gas+Parking. In cities like Boston, Chicago, Washington and other cities with high transit ridership you have people who split their trips between Transit and SOV because on the micro level there are trips that are more convenient to take transit to.

[TheProf]

Originally Posted by bjimmy24

I think to some degree (though I have no idea how much), a growing population downtown and in Ohio City, Detroit Shoreway, Tremont probably cuts down on public transit a bit. Living in those central areas is a lot more walkable than elsewhere and extremely bike able. I just know that if I lived in Ohio City and worked downtown, I'd never take public transit unless it were raining or blizarding or something. Otherwise, I vastly prefer to bike.

Really? I would think just the opposite. In fact I'm noticing more people living in places like Ohio City and University Circle (esp at the new Little Italy stop) using the Red Line more. I've noticed it to a lesser degree, but a spike nonetheless) at W. 65-Lorain/Eco City, which is Detroit Shoreway. I've also been seeing mid-to-late evening millenials lining up at the Shaker Square Blue/Green Line station to head back into town, meaning they likely live downtown or the near West Side. And Health Line traffic up and through PHS and CSU's campus town has been spiking since downtown's, Midtown's, Cleveland Clinic's and UC-Uptown's resurgence. So no, I think the growth of these inner-city neighborhoods has helped not hurt transit serving these areas -- which contributes to some not even having to own a car.

I can't imagine why if you lived in such a close-in, transit friendly neighborhood like Ohio City why you'd "never" use public transit... Different strokes, I guess...

[bjimmy24]

Originally Posted by TheProf

I can't imagine why if you lived in such a close-in, transit friendly neighborhood like Ohio City why you'd "never" use public transit... Different strokes, I guess...

Faster to bike. This is how I function at least (and most people I know in my current location). Any trip under 5 miles, I'm definitely biking. Just suggesting one possible factor of many. There is a reason Uber, bike shares, Bird scooters etc are popular nationwide. They are faster than existing options.

[j_ws]

Originally Posted by btownboss4

Still seems like a huge drop (on pace for almost a 30% drop in 3 years) if the cities population is truly stagnating.

It's definitely part of a longer trend, but they've also been slowly gutting routes for more than three years.

Additionally, people can always get a car if they absolutely need to. Payday loans, bad deals on beaters, etc. It traps people further into debt, but they can absolutely do it if their line gets eliminated and they have no other option. It's hard to walk even an extra 1/2 mile with a bunch of kids, if you have mobility issues, etc and unfortunately that's who gets hurt the most.

I also think there's merit to your argument about where population is growing. Neighborhoods closer to the core that are less transit-dependent are gaining population while other, more transit-dependent neighborhoods have still seen some slowed decline. This applies more to bus ridership than rail, as the rail lines are doing fine.

Originally Posted by usroute10

I wonder what form of transportation are all of these former transit riders using now? Were these all "choice" riders who own their own car and just decided to use it instead of the bus? If a lot of these people who have stopped using public transit are low-income and can only afford a hooptie that breaks down often, then how are these poor folks getting around?

Their lives just get rougher with each concession they need to make. In my anecdotal experience, I'm seeing more choice riders now than three years ago. I'm one of them when I'm not biking, but we aren't the ones who are most impacted by system cuts, so we also aren't really affecting the overall ridership trends.

[ferraris]

Originally Posted by j_ws

Additionally, people can always get a car if they absolutely need to. Payday loans, bad deals on beaters, etc. It traps people further into debt, but they can absolutely do it if their line gets eliminated and they have no other option. It's hard to walk even an extra 1/2 mile with a bunch of kids, if you have mobility issues, etc and unfortunately that's who gets hurt the most.

I went to a buy here, pay here place last month after seeing an appealing vehicle online while car shopping and I couldn't believe the $2,000 half broken rust buckets they were trying to sell for $4,000 or $5,000. I overheard some other customers shopping and talking with the salesmen and I am definitely not their target customer. Their target customer only cares about "how much down, how much a month". Paying too much and getting a 23% loan don't matter to them if the payments fit their budget. I know some people stuck in this cycle. If it breaks down too bad they'll just let the dealer take it back and get another car from another buy here, pay here place.

To sum up, yeah if you have any sort of reasonable employment and like $99, you can probably get a car today. It probably won't be a good deal or a reliable car, but you can get it.

[andrew61]

Well, yesterday was Day Four of a scheduled bus not showing up at all. It's taking me longer to get from Lakewood to Maple Heights in the evening than it would take for me to drive from Cleveland to Columbus. I'm really sinking into despair here. And driving is not an option for me, and probably never will be again. Guess I'm going to just have to stay home all the time and not spend money in the city and not do things I want to do, go places I want to go, or see people I want to see.

Life in Chicago, quite simply, contained fewer hassles for me. It was much easier.