Urban cities (best, difference, downtown, beach)

[waronxmas]

Most big cities are walkable, and it's even harder to say what is "urban" as that is a relatively hard thing to define succinctly since it comes in many varieties. But to me, walkability is a big factor in how urban a place is and cities that are more walkable than most have two characteristic: High public transportation usage (with any system with over 100,000 daily riders) and a large segment of the adult population that does not own cars (meaning they will be walking form place to place)

With that in mind:

Number of unlinked daily public transportation riders by type (numbers are rounded up). If you don't see your city listed, and you have one of these types of systems, that means you don't have more than 100,000 riders on that type of system.
source: http://www.apta.com/resources/statis...rship_APTA.pdf

Subway:
1. New York City - 7,8000,000
2. Washington, DC - 1,000,000
3. Chicago - 676,000
4. Boston - 479,000
5. San Francisco - 354,800
6. Philadelphia - 289,000
7. Atlanta - 260,000
8. Los Angeles - 157,000

Light Rail:
1. Boston - 238,000
2. San Francisco - 186,000
3. Los Angeles - 142,000
4. Portland - 112,000

Bus:
1. New York City - 2,200,00
2. Los Angeles - 1,156,000
3. Chicago - 997,000
4. Philadelphia - 558,000
5. San Francisco - 511,000
6. Washington, DC - 449,000
7. Seattle - 379,000
8. Boston - 368,000
9. Baltimore - 279,000
10. Miami - 257,000
11. Houston - 247,000
12. Atlanta - 235,000
13. Minneapolis - 218,00
14. Portland - 212,400
15. Denver - 210,000
16. Pittsburgh - 194,000
17. Milwaukee - 151,000
18. Phoenix - 146,000
19. Dallas - 142,000
20. San Antonio - 129,000
21. Detroit - 128,000
22. San Jose - 108,000

Percentage of the adult population that does not own a car according to the 2000 census:

1. New York City, New York 55.7%
2. Newark, New Jersey 44.17%
3. Jersey City, New Jersey 40.67%
4. Washington, D.C. 36.93%
5. Hartford, Connecticut 36.14%
6. Baltimore, Maryland 35.89%
7. Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 35.74%
8. Boston, Massachusetts 34.91%
9. Buffalo, New York 31.42%
10. New Haven, Connecticut 29.74%
11. Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 29.45%
12. Paterson, New Jersey 29.32%
13. Chicago, Illinois 28.85%
14. San Francisco, California 28.56%
15. Cambridge, Massachusetts 27.72%
16. New Orleans, Louisiana 27.32%
17. Yonkers, New York 27.05%
18. Miami, Florida 26.71%
19. Syracuse, New York 26.56%
20. Rochester, New York 25.32%
21. Elizabeth, New Jersey 25.21%
22. St. Louis, Missouri 25.17%
23. Cleveland, Ohio 24.57%
24. Bridgeport, Connecticut 23.77%
25. Atlanta, Georgia 23.58%
26. Cincinnati, Ohio 23.37%
27. Providence, Rhode Island 22.92%
28. Springfield, Massachusetts 22.52%
29. Detroit, Michigan 21.9%
30. Richmond, Virginia 21.63%
31. Milwaukee, Wisconsin 21.36%
32. East Los Angeles, California 21.24%
33. Louisville, Kentucky 20.47%
34. Dayton, Ohio 19.97%
35. Minneapolis, Minnesota 19.7%
36. Oakland, California 19.62%
37. Waterbury, Connecticut 19.46%
38. Gary, Indiana 19.37
39. Honolulu, Hawaii 19.36%
40. Allentown, Pennsylvania 18.84%
41. Erie, Pennsylvania 18.2%
42. Worcester, Massachusetts 18.11%
43. Savannah, Georgia 17.64%
44. Lowell, Massachusetts 17.05%
45. Berkeley, California 17.01%
46. Norfolk, Virginia 17.01%
47. St. Paul, Minnesota 16.83%
48. Birmingham, Alabama 16.77%
49. Los Angeles, California 16.53%
50. Seattle, Washington 16.32%

All of those who were saying Atlanta (the city, not the burbs, duh) isn't walkable, please explain the above highlighted items.

[Ebck120]

Originally Posted by waronxmas

Most big cities are walkable, and it's even harder to say what is "urban" as that is a relatively hard thing to define succinctly since it comes in many varieties. But to me, walkability is a big factor in how urban a place is and cities that are more walkable than most have two characteristic: High public transportation usage (with any system with over 100,000 daily riders) and a large segment of the adult population that does not own cars (meaning they will be walking form place to place)

With that in mind:






All of those who were saying Atlanta (the city, not the burbs, duh) isn't walkable, please explain the above highlighted items.

simple answer: over representation of strip malls and single family homes with large yards found everywhere in the city outside of a few streets in downtown and midtown makes it seem less urban. Also the lack of foot traffic, I rarely saw people walking outside of rush hours times.

[waronxmas]

Originally Posted by Ebck120

simple answer: over representation of strip malls

Straw man argument for those that don't much about Atlanta. and single family homes with large yards found everywhere in the city outside of a few streets in downtown and midtown makes it seem less urban. Also the lack of foot traffic, I rarely saw people walking outside of rush hours times.

I always wonder at how you can over-generalize while simultaneously only give detail-less, straw man based, "arguments".

The facts speak for themselves, whether you choose to believe that is up to you.

[Ebck120]

Originally Posted by waronxmas

I always wonder at how you can over-generalize while simultaneously only give detail-less, straw man based, "arguments".

The facts speak for themselves, whether you choose to believe that is up to you.

I no longer live in Atlanta however next time I'm there I'll be sure to take snaps of all the strip malls I see. All you have to do is leave Peachtree and go either west or east 2 or 3 blocks, from 75/85 to about Juniper in midtown is urban but you leave that square and you all of a sudden hit stand alone shops, stripmalls and single family homes. In Midtown, considered one of the most urban areas of Atlanta, just look at ansley shopping center (giant open air parking lot provided) and then thereas that strip mall with trader joes and landmark movie cinema (also a giant open air parking lot provided). Just continue driving up Peachtree beyond Midtown towards Buckhead and you'll see loads of strip malls. I don't recall the last time I saw a bar in a strip mall within the heart of a real urban city.

what other evidence besides just driving around the city and seeing for yourself do you need?

It seems that you tell people who have an opinion that differs from yours is due to lack of knowledge on Atlanta. Just FYI I just left Atlanta after having lived there for 1.5 years.

[Billiam]

urban by most people's standards in the US would include those cities which developed largely before 1950 - NY, Philly, Bmore, Chicago, San Francisco, St. Louis, New Orleans, etc

[waronxmas]

Originally Posted by Ebck120

I no longer live in Atlanta however next time I'm there I'll be sure to take snaps of all the strip malls I see. All you have to do is leave Peachtree and go either west or east 2 or 3 blocks, from 75/85 to about Juniper in midtown is urban but you leave that square and you are all of a sudden hit stand alone shops, stripmalls and single family homes. In Midtown, considered one of the most urban areas of Atlanta, just look at ansley shopping center (giant open air parking lot provided) and then thereas that strip mall with trader joes and landmark movie cinema (also a giant open air parking lot provided). Just continue driving up Peachtree beyond Midtown towards Buckhead and you'll see loads of strip malls. I don't recall the last time I saw a bar in a strip mall within the heart of a real urban city.

what other evidence besides just driving around the city and seeing for yourself do you need?

While I don't have time to go through every inch of the city with you, some of what you say is true, but not the whole story. Strip malls were a fad for a few decades, but they are not the predominate form of retail building in Atlanta. Secondly, Downtown and Midtown aren't the only urban parts of the city. There are whole parts of the city we can down one by one like the eastside, west end,

But does Atlanta (or LA, Dallas or Houston for that matter) not look or is built like San Fran, Boston, NYC, Philly or DC? OF COURSE. Does that mean they aren't urban, or not "real cities"? NO. It is still urban, just in a different way. I don't know why that bothers people so much.

[Ebck120]

Originally Posted by waronxmas

While I don't have time to go through every inch of the city with you, some of what you say is true, but not the whole story. Strip malls were a fad for a few decades, but they are not the predominate form of retail building in Atlanta. Secondly, Downtown and Midtown aren't the only urban parts of the city. There are whole parts of the city we can down one by one like the eastside, west end,

But does Atlanta (or LA, Dallas or Houston for that matter) not look or is built like San Fran, Boston, NYC, Philly or DC? OF COURSE. Does that mean they aren't urban, or not "real cities"? NO. It is still urban, just in a different way. I don't know why that bothers people so much.

it seems to strike more of a nerve with you that some people don't think Atlanta is as urban as you would like to picture it. I was using Midtown as an example considering Midtown is pretty much the "urban" gem of Atlanta. Having to drive from one urban crossroads to the next to enjoy the "urban" areas of the city alone make the city less urban in my opinion. In my opinion Atlanta falls somewhere in between urban and suburban. You asked a question in your previous post and as a person who has lived in Atlanta before I answered.

[waronxmas]

Originally Posted by Ebck120

it seems to strike more of a nerve with you that some people don't think Atlanta is as urban as you would like to picture it. In my opinion Atlanta falls somewhere in between urban and suburban. You asked a question in your previous post and as a person who has lived in Atlanta before I answered.

No nerve is struck. It's just academically dishonest when having a conversation about what cities are and aren't urban based a specific subset of characteristics that only fit a few cities because of situations specific to those cities.

What constitutes an urban city is much more complex than superficial things.

[Ebck120]

Originally Posted by waronxmas

No nerve is struck. It's just academically dishonest when having a conversation about what cities are and aren't urban based a specific subset of characteristics that only fit a few cities because of situations specific to those cities.

What constitutes an urban city is much more complex than superficial things.

My biggest judging factor on urbanity is the "Walking" population, which leads to lots of options regarding retail and restaurants within walkable distances (or mass transit). In cities like NYC, DC, Chicago, SF, etc, etc I always see people walking around going to destinations. In Atlanta what I observed most is people driving everywhere hence all the parking lots and strip malls.

[waronxmas]

Originally Posted by Ebck120

My biggest judging factor on urbanity is the "Walking" population, which leads to lots of options regarding retail and restaurants within walkable distances (or mass transit). In cities like NYC, DC, Chicago, SF, etc, etc I always see people walking around going to destinations. In Atlanta what I observed most is people driving everywhere hence all the parking lots and strip malls.

Prime example of what I'm talking about. You will see more (not only) people driving in Atlanta as opposed to the cities you listed because parking is cheap and available. However, that is a totally separate issue from the ability to walk and the amount of the resident population that does not utilize driving for transportation.

Also, it ignores what the OP asked which is what constitutes an urban city. In America, I see cities being divided into these categories, based on the predominant way (more or less) the cities are built in their current form. You have cities like Savannah or Charleston that are characterized by the Colonial period. Or places that were characterized by the industrial revolution like Pittsburgh, Chicago, Cincinnati, St. Louis and modern Boston, Philadelphia. Some places are had to go for hyper density because of their physical constraints like San Francisco or Manhattan. Then there are cities that are characterized by the late industrial revolution and the rise of the streetcars like Minneapolis, Detroit, Milwaukee and central Atlanta. Then there are places that built their urban environs during the rise of the automobile like Los Angeles and Houston.

Now none of these places are hard and fast to these particular periods, and many of them incorporate elements of some of these types of cities. But be sure that ALL of them are urban.