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... btw, in terms of size, I have no problem with the OP's original tier-ing. Greater Cleveland, even with Akron, is not in the same league with Detroit or MSP and, obviously, it's nowhere close to mega-Chicago... But in terms of quality of lifestyle and things to do, the only city I don't think Cleveland/greater Cleveland matches, is Chicago.
How does this matter? Both Trenton, NJ and Wilmington, DE, have "... their own energy" as separate cities, in themselves, but nobody argues they are not within Philadelphia's metropolitan area.
Philadelphia is also 20x larger than those cities and has always been much, much larger, while Cleveland city isn't even twice the size of Akron...
Philadelphia is also 20x larger than those cities and has always been much, much larger, while Cleveland city isn't even twice the size of Akron...
What does that have to do with anything. It doesn't matter what the size of the anchor city is, so long as it is recognized the core city of the particular region and, in Cleveland's case, it is the dominating presence in the area -- culture-wise, economy-wise and even population wise (Cleveland's Cuyahoga County has 1.2M to Akron's Summit has 540K). In fact, Cleveland dominates all of NEO but Akron's close proximity and subordinating presence -- along with its strong commuter base into/out of Cleveland, should absolutely make it within Cleveland's metro area... Like it or not, Cleveland is screwed in this sense.
I totally agree. I think it's absurd per US statisticians that neither Akron (just under 200K) nor Summit County (just under 550K) are not included in Cleveland's metro area, meaning Cleveland's metro total should be around 2.55-2.6M when all residents are properly counted. Yeah, I get that Akron is large enough to be its own metro area, but it's close enough (34 miles, downtown-to-downtown), and has enough residents who commute to Cleveland, not to be included in Cleveland's metropolitan area, statistically.
What does that even do for Cleveland though?
Now instead of being slightly smaller than Pittsburgh and Cincinnati it’s slightly larger?
Guys can we not turn another thread into Cleveland vs. everyone? If you want to talk about how you would break out the Midwestern tiers feel free but lets stay on topic
You had good points otherwise, but saying Cleveland belongs with Detroit and MSP is a hard sell, and I'm not buying...
For starters, even within both their heydays, Detroit was the larger, more impactful, more powerful city. Now that both are not in their prime, but on seemingly positive rebuilds....Detroit is still the larger, more important, more powerful city, within its state, the Midwest at large, the nation, and it is a binational metropolis with stronger international pull. Cleveland + all of its peripheral metros still doesn't equal Detroit in any stretch, least of which population and economy...
MSP is also a more international metropolis than any configuration of Cleveland. It's economy would still be about 35% smaller than MSP with Akron and Canton included...
This is to say nothing of the other areas in which MSP beats Cleveland, so they really would only be equal in population only. The comp to St. Louis is more apt...
Personally, while I understand why you Cleveland guys lobby for the Akron and Canton areas as included in your MSA, it's difficult for me to view them as one and the same. I have a friend/mentor who lives in Canton---is it connected to Cleveland? Yes. All of these areas are Northeast Ohio and as you and others routinely describe, there is plenty of connection and cross flow between the urban centers. I do not feel like I'm in Cleveland when I'm in Canton, and even Akron has it's own energy and is a hard sell as being Greater Cleveland....
They are all Northeast Ohio. Northeast Ohio is not synonymous with Greater Cleveland...
I agree to disagree with your last couple of sentences. I'm from Cleveland, live outside of Akron and work in Canton. And I have lived most of my life in Northeast Ohio (Cleveland, Akron, Youngstown and Canton). The only portion of Northeast Ohio that doesn't feel like an extension of Cleveland to me is Youngstown, though, at the same time, Youngstown/Warren definitely feels like the rest of Northeast Ohio. But the Cleveland-Akron-Canton corridor (I-71, I-77, Route 8) are all pretty much the same. Yes, Akron and Canton do have their own identities, but there isn't any widespread division and it seems like most people from Akron or Canton will identify with their city first, they identify with Cleveland second... "I'm from Akron (or Canton), which is outside of Cleveland."
As for Cleveland being in a tier with Detroit or Minneapolis, I did say if it was, it would be at the bottom of the tier, but it's actually not too far off, at least compared to Minneapolis.
Going off commuting patterns, an Cleveland-Akron MSA merger could happen within the next 10 years and if Akron's MSA is merged with Cleveland's, it will set off a big chain even events that would lead to Cleveland being a metro of 3.4 million people in a land area of 6,000 square miles. Minneapolis-St. Paul is at 3.6 million in a land area of 7,600 square miles.
According to the latest numbers from the state of Ohio's website (based on 2015 wage data), Summit County's traffic flow into the Cleveland MSA is at 22.48 percent (59,570 daily). Based on the number of total workers in Summit County, that is about 6,000 short of reaching 25 percent. But comparing the 2015 numbers to the 2011 numbers, it looks like Cleveland's MSA added 3,600 Summit County commuters. If those numbers hold, and there is no immediate reason they shouldn't (Summit Counties growth continues to be in the Cleveland-centric northern part of the county, and Cleveland's economy is growing a fairly rapid pace), I wouldn't be shocked to see Akron included in the Cleveland MSA next time it's recalculated. Adding Summit County, then brings Portage (which already meets the criteria to be in Cleveland's MSA as is ... and like Summit, most of Portage's growth is in the Cleveland-centric NW portion of the county).
That's what will lead to a series of other events. Adding Portage County, brings Ashtabula County back into the Cleveland MSA. Adding Summit and Portage brings Stark County past the 25 percent threshold and brings the Canton MSA into the now Cleveland-Akron-Canton-Elyria-Mentor MSA. Adding Summit and Stark brings Wayne County (which just was added into the Cleveland CSA) into the MSA (Wayne was pretty much split between the three metros ... like 11 percent Cleveland, 9 percent Akron, 7 percent Canton).
Adding Wayne then brings Ashland County, which currently isn't even in the CSA, to the 25 percent threshold. It would be close, but Tuscarawas (which is in the CSA) would be right on the cusp of also hitting 25 percent. Same with Holmes County, though it likely would fall a couple percentage points short.
So, that would, in one day, bring the Cleveland MSA from 2.05 million to 3.4 million. It would also easily put the Youngstown-Warren MSA into the CSA. And there are other counties that would either remain in the CSA (Erie and Huron) or enter it (Holmes, Columbiana and maybe Richland).
Actually, if Richland were to join the CSA, the Cleveland and Columbus CSAs then would be contagious of each other. Could Cleveland and Columbus actually share the same CSA at that point? What about Cincinnati-Dayton, which like Cleveland-Akron, is within a couple of percentage points from, by the letter of the law, joining metros. If they would also join, you could see the same residual effect from Cincinnati-Dayton into Columbus, thus potentially creating some mega Columbus-Cleveland-Cincinnati-Dayton-Akron-Canton-Youngstown CSA?
I'm digressing, but in a way, it shows how arbitrary these MSA/CSA groupings can be. But if others are taking advantage of it, why not Cleveland ... or Cincinnati ... or Cleveland-Columbus and Cincinnati?
Anyway, all I'm arguing is that Cleveland and Akron should be in the same MSA (and adding the Canton MSA and Wayne County). That makes it an MSA of more than 3 million and a GDP of more than 200 billion ... which yes, does arguably put it on the same tier (although below) Minneapolis, which also has a sprawled out MSA anyway.
I agree to disagree with your last couple of sentences. I'm from Cleveland, live outside of Akron and work in Canton. And I have lived most of my life in Northeast Ohio (Cleveland, Akron, Youngstown and Canton). The only portion of Northeast Ohio that doesn't feel like an extension of Cleveland to me is Youngstown, though, at the same time, Youngstown/Warren definitely feels like the rest of Northeast Ohio. But the Cleveland-Akron-Canton corridor (I-71, I-77, Route 8) are all pretty much the same. Yes, Akron and Canton do have their own identities, but there isn't any widespread division and it seems like most people from Akron or Canton will identify with their city first, they identify with Cleveland second... "I'm from Akron (or Canton), which is outside of Cleveland."
As for Cleveland being in a tier with Detroit or Minneapolis, I did say if it was, it would be at the bottom of the tier, but it's actually not too far off, at least compared to Minneapolis.
Going off commuting patterns, an Cleveland-Akron MSA merger could happen within the next 10 years and if Akron's MSA is merged with Cleveland's, it will set off a big chain even events that would lead to Cleveland being a metro of 3.4 million people in a land area of 6,000 square miles. Minneapolis-St. Paul is at 3.6 million in a land area of 7,600 square miles.
According to the latest numbers from the state of Ohio's website (based on 2015 wage data), Summit County's traffic flow into the Cleveland MSA is at 22.48 percent (59,570 daily). Based on the number of total workers in Summit County, that is about 6,000 short of reaching 25 percent. But comparing the 2015 numbers to the 2011 numbers, it looks like Cleveland's MSA added 3,600 Summit County commuters. If those numbers hold, and there is no immediate reason they shouldn't (Summit Counties growth continues to be in the Cleveland-centric northern part of the county, and Cleveland's economy is growing a fairly rapid pace), I wouldn't be shocked to see Akron included in the Cleveland MSA next time it's recalculated. Adding Summit County, then brings Portage (which already meets the criteria to be in Cleveland's MSA as is ... and like Summit, most of Portage's growth is in the Cleveland-centric NW portion of the county).
That's what will lead to a series of other events. Adding Portage County, brings Ashtabula County back into the Cleveland MSA. Adding Summit and Portage brings Stark County past the 25 percent threshold and brings the Canton MSA into the now Cleveland-Akron-Canton-Elyria-Mentor MSA. Adding Summit and Stark brings Wayne County (which just was added into the Cleveland CSA) into the MSA (Wayne was pretty much split between the three metros ... like 11 percent Cleveland, 9 percent Akron, 7 percent Canton).
Adding Wayne then brings Ashland County, which currently isn't even in the CSA, to the 25 percent threshold. It would be close, but Tuscarawas (which is in the CSA) would be right on the cusp of also hitting 25 percent. Same with Holmes County, though it likely would fall a couple percentage points short.
So, that would, in one day, bring the Cleveland MSA from 2.05 million to 3.4 million. It would also easily put the Youngstown-Warren MSA into the CSA. And there are other counties that would either remain in the CSA (Erie and Huron) or enter it (Holmes, Columbiana and maybe Richland).
Actually, if Richland were to join the CSA, the Cleveland and Columbus CSAs then would be contagious of each other. Could Cleveland and Columbus actually share the same CSA at that point? What about Cincinnati-Dayton, which like Cleveland-Akron, is within a couple of percentage points from, by the letter of the law, joining metros. If they would also join, you could see the same residual effect from Cincinnati-Dayton into Columbus, thus potentially creating some mega Columbus-Cleveland-Cincinnati-Dayton-Akron-Canton-Youngstown CSA?
I'm digressing, but in a way, it shows how arbitrary these MSA/CSA groupings can be. But if others are taking advantage of it, why not Cleveland ... or Cincinnati ... or Cleveland-Columbus and Cincinnati?
Anyway, all I'm arguing is that Cleveland and Akron should be in the same MSA (and adding the Canton MSA and Wayne County). That makes it an MSA of more than 3 million and a GDP of more than 200 billion ... which yes, does arguably put it on the same tier (although below) Minneapolis, which also has a sprawled out MSA anyway.
To be in the same MSA you need 25% commuter share with a core county (so as of Today Cuyahoga and Lorain), not the MSA. So you're "chain commuting" argument wouldn't really work.
Cleveland doesn't have the jobs in its county to support a 3.4 million person MSA, MSP does.
MSP has 730,000 people in 108sq miles. That is actually the 2nd largest Urban Core in the entire Midwest.
To be in the same MSA you need 25% commuter share with a core county (so as of Today Cuyahoga and Lorain), not the MSA. So you're "chain commuting" argument wouldn't really work.
Cleveland doesn't have the jobs in its county to support a 3.4 million person MSA, MSP does.
MSP has 730,000 people in 108sq miles. That is actually the 2nd largest Urban Core in the entire Midwest.
I'm not gonna bog this thread anymore, but you seem to be in tune with MSA. I'm about to focus on the Browns game (from my home in the Cleveland MSA, but in suburban Akron, lol). But I want to hit you up on PM because I got some questions about exactly how it's calculated.
Because the government decided which states were in what region. Kentucky is in the geographic South, even though it has suburbs in Indiana, a Midwestern state.
The debate of what these cities are like culturally is another can of worms. Personally Louisville doesn't feel Midwestern to me, even when comparing it to other lower Midwestern river cities like St. Louis.
Quote:
Originally Posted by btownboss4
The Ohio river is a massive cultural boundary places mnorth and South of the river are very different.
Kind of like how Düsseldorf is closer to Brussels than Berlin by a lot but much more similar to the latter.
Thanks for the replies and yeah fair enough. Can see it's also being included in the Southern city tier thread too.
St Louis, Kansas City, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Columbus, Indianapolis
Milwaukee (don’t really think it fits in the 2.1-2.9 grouping or the 650k-1.1)
Grand Rapids, Omaha, Dayton, Des Moines, Madison
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