Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Yes, let's try to imagine the entire country relocating to downtown Indianapolis.
Indy could handle it
We have the Indy 500 coming up thats 400,000 people.
Super Bowl 46 brought in over 1,400,000 people to Downtown Indianapolis over the 10 days of festivites. Making it better than even the Mag Mile and Michigan Avenue in Chicago
Also Timeofseasons quite alot of Michiganders have moved to Indianapolis over the past 10-15 years so the rest of the state doesnt seem to agree with you.
Speedways for car racing in most cities are not downtown because they are much larger than ball park stadiums subject to land size restrictions that won't permit it. The race tracks can range from 2-3 miles in length making them too big.
Thanks for the map! Gosh I had no idea where KC's stadiums are located! It's suburban by anybody's standards. Like Indy has some unique urban standard haha. Again, I was only mentioning it's not as far away as people seem to think. Arrowhead's location is PERFECT. Kauffman could be downtown, but it's not. Like I said, I would take a non-downtown MLB park over a minor league downtown park all day long. 99% of fans drive (or take transit) to a game and leave and don't have a beer at a bar anyway, even in the most urban parks. I have been to games in 28 MLB parks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanologist
Sure if you prefer the suburbia environment for those sort of things. I would like to have the option to walk down the street to a pub after a game. You see the ratio between suburbs and city center are off balance. Reverse growth in a city should bring more development towards the center not outwards.
I could be wrong, but I think KC has way more urban housing options than Indy. I don't see how they can even really be compared. Even downtown KC has more than downtown Indy, but the entire urban core of KC? Check out this link: https://www.city-data.com/forum/kansa...sing-kcmo.html
Not even close. So what is your point?
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanologist
Indy has the world's largest sport stadium the IMS which is bigger than both KC's ball parks combined (not including Lucas Oil)
Yea Daytona has a pretty large speedway too. Big deal. KC's speedway has more to do around it than Indy's by a long shot and it only seats 100k. What in the world do speedways have to do with urban fabric and comparing major metro areas? Not a thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanologist
Sure they can. So you're saying many cities like Chicago (Soldier Field), Cincy, Cleveland, Pittsburgh shouldn't have them downtown. Well, at least these parks are within walking distance for the many people living or staying downtown and near by neighborhoods. Why on earth would you waste more time and gas riding around town for everything when you can get it in one area within shorter distance. After, a Colts game people have the option of leaving the car parked to go walk downtown for dinner, pub, shopping or a movie perhaps. You couldn't do that from either stadium in KC.
I never said that, read my post again... and no Arrowhead should not be in downtown KC. There is no place to put it. The only place would be down by the river or something, but then you would have parking lots all along the riverfront. NFL stadiums look nice in post cards, but they don't fit well with downtowns. Even in Cincy, Cleveland etc, the NFL stadiums are the most sterile parts of those downtowns and they have a huge footprint that does nothing for the everyday vibrancy of the cities. When 70,000 people do show up, everybody else avoids downtown like the plague, so the increase in retail and dining is actually very minimal on game days, if any at all and it's certainly not wide spread. Have you taken any urban planning classes?
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanologist
Don't need to as the downtown residential development has grown and will continue to grow. It's like saying we need to remove Wrigley Field when it was built. You have to start somewhere. St Louis and Pittsburgh did the right thing by building these parks near walkable neighborhoods. KC could do the same.
Downtown StL has has three large stadium venues downtown now for nearly 2 decades and a downtown ballpark for many decades. How long do you think it should take?
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanologist
Yes, but after the game let's out thousands can pour into those places rather than places out in the burb stuck in some drive thru. I rather be walking with the masses to support urban establishments more close by.
Tailgating is much more fun than crowding into some sports bar anyway.
Look, I love downtown stadiums as much as anybody and pushed hard for a new baseball park in downtown KC back when that debate was going on. But stadiums just don't have that much impact on having a vibrant downtown. More often than not, they create massive plots of dead space via the parking lots and stadium footprint itself and scare off actual private development. Coors, Petco etc were placed near areas that were already booming (gaslight, lodo) and would have continued booming regardless of the stadiums. Generally if you put a stadium in an area that is not already rapidly developing, you have to force development around it with city backed projects to make anything happen. There is a reason for that.
I could be wrong, but I think KC has way more urban housing options than Indy. I don't see how they can even really be compared. Even downtown KC has more than downtown Indy, but the entire urban core of KC? Check out this link: https://www.city-data.com/forum/kansa...sing-kcmo.html
I could be wrong, but I think KC has way more urban housing options than Indy. I don't see how they can even really be compared. Even downtown KC has more than downtown Indy, but the entire urban core of KC? Check out this link: https://www.city-data.com/forum/kansa...sing-kcmo.html
Not even close. So what is your point?
Actually, DT KC pop, 18k (Kansas City Downtown Council). I'm sure they are more up-to-date than you are. DT Indianapolis is over 25k and will break 30k by beginning of next year at the latest. People who visit (even if they visit frequently) never know Indianapolis' downtown borders. Outside of Mass Ave, the entire NE Quad is housing. Outside of Lilly, Wellpoint and Farm Bureau, the entire SE Quad of downtown is housing heading into Fletcher Place. North end North of 65 is housing minus Methodist and part of the NW quad as well minus IUPUI heading up Upper Canal. The thousands of pictures look great and all but at the end of the day, numbers is what counts.
Quote:
Yea Daytona has a pretty large speedway too. Big deal. KC's speedway has more to do around it than Indy's by a long shot and it only seats 100k. What in the world do speedways have to do with urban fabric and comparing major metro areas? Not a thing.
The Speedway like Country Club is nothing more than a bragging right. One that very few cities have in that regard. Despite the European look of it CCP is nothing more than a shopping mall yet Missourians take great pride in it. But at the end of the day, it's a mall. IMS is a gigantic race track, largest sporting venue, second oldest track but also at the end of the day, it's a race track.
Quote:
I never said that, read my post again... and no Arrowhead should not be in downtown KC. There is no place to put it. The only place would be down by the river or something, but then you would have parking lots all along the riverfront. NFL stadiums look nice in post cards, but they don't fit well with downtowns. Even in Cincy, Cleveland etc, the NFL stadiums are the most sterile parts of those downtowns and they have a huge footprint that does nothing for the everyday vibrancy of the cities. When 70,000 people do show up, everybody else avoids downtown like the plague, so the increase in retail and dining is actually very minimal on game days, if any at all and it's certainly not wide spread. Have you taken any urban planning classes?
Tailgating is much more fun than crowding into some sports bar anyway.
While that may be Cleveland and Cincy, LOS was purposefully built at an angle to let out steps away from South Meridian and the Wholesale district. It wasn't by accident. That dead zone doesn't exist and unlike KC, there are more than enough conventions in Indianapolis to keep foot traffic along South street. The SW quad is pretty much warehousing so unless the city decided to transform that area, your point is moot and incorrect. 70k people showing up for a game in Indianapolis doesn't actually deter anyone esp. if they are there to hit the Canal or Mass Ave or take in a play or a concert at Bankers Life. Even if they chose to hit WRSP or any of the memorials or the zoo.
Ask the business owners if the Pacers add only minimal gain for them and they'll laugh at you. This issue has already been discussed during the lockout and the business owners themselves stipulated the large influx of revenue they generate DUE to the Pacers being there. That influx is triple for the Colts. Again this isn't me saying it, it's the restaurant owners themselves who know their business and know where their revenue comes from. You don't have to agree with but oh, well, I put more stock in what a group of individuals say with regards to how they make their living over someone who doesn't do that but only speculate.
Believe it or not, Colts games have both tailgaiting AND bars all within walking distance of each other. Shocking right! So come to a Colts game and pick your poison, you have both to choose from.
For anybody claiming that IMS makes Indianapolis a great place, I wouldn't use that. Daytona is arguably #2 for racing enthusiasts. And as a city, Daytona sucks. As if any city with a major sporting event could be worse than Jacksonville...
In terms of the topic, I haven't been to any of the cities. But I'd like to visit KC because it reminds of me of Dallas (cow trail and stuff) and St. Louis because of all the things described in this thread. Omaha just isn't big enough yet; this really isn't the right thread for it. And sorry Indy guys: outside of Indianapolis' sphere of influence, most people (I know) think Indy is a pretty average city. Nothing really special about it. Don't get me wrong I love Peyton, but he's in Denver now, so I'm not really gonna be following the Colts anymore. Sorry
I have given Indy credit where credit is due and have always stated that they have done well by placing venues in strategic locations so they feed off one another and create a great compact and walkable convention environment. Indy decided they wanted to be one of the top 2nd tier convention cities and I think they have done that and found a niche there.
But how does that make Indy a better overall city than Kansas City or St Louis which just have more to offer IMO?
The Indy Speedway is great. I have swung through there with my family and toured it. It's an Indy landmark. But the track could be anywhere. It has nothing to do with the city's urban fabric.
The Country Club Plaza however is very much part of the urban fabric of KC and is much more than a mall. It's one of the best examples of an urban, walkable, mixed use neighborhood anywhere in the country.
KCMO might have 15-20k residents downtown, but most of the pics I posted are not even downtown which was my point. Very few were even living downtown 15 years ago so 20k is quite a jump from that. The plaza and midtown have dozens and dozens of high density urban housing developments from row houses to 25 story towers. This is all completely separate from downtown kcmo. KC is much more than the downtown loop. But even the downtown area has so much to offer now vs ten years ago (Sprint Center, P&L District, Performing Arts Center etc).
I like Indy. I just don't think it's quite there with KC yet as far as overall amenities, culture, built environment etc. I think Indy falls short. Just like I think KC falls short of St Louis for the same reasons and Omaha is way outside the circle.
What Indy does have over KC is some nice urban recreation (the canal riverwalks), modern large hotels (KC's big hotels are super dated) and it's closer to other large metros (but central Indiana topography is so mehh vs western Missouri's rolling hills and very wooded/greenery).
I know you hate the pics, but pics show what KC looks like and Indy doesn't look like this. These pics show urban kcmo from downtown to the plaza and you have to admit, that KC is just a more established and more built up city than Indy regarldess of where the stadiums are. And again, I would take a MLB park before any other sport. That's 80 potential days to go to a game and see MLB. The Chiefs are a blast, but they are only in town for 8 days. I don't care if your speedway seats a million people. Give me a MLB team. That's how I like to spend many spring/summer/fall days with my family.
A little curious bit. Indy and KC are the two most generous when it comes to "downtown" boundaries of the four. Just according to each Wiki designation since I really don't want to search through city websites to find the info.
Doesn't really mean much, just an interesting take on how cities define themselves. For instance technically our two main museums, baseball stadium and urban university aren't "downtown" while they are more connected to the actual core than some of the far reaches of what Indy and KC consider "downtown."
Like this street in Indy: Untitled - Google Maps and this street in KC: Untitled - Google Maps are considered in the downtown population. I just have a hard time considering those downtown residents in a true sense. They look like awesome neighborhoods though.
For anybody claiming that IMS makes Indianapolis a great place, I wouldn't use that. Daytona is arguably #2 for racing enthusiasts. And as a city, Daytona sucks. As if any city with a major sporting event could be worse than Jacksonville...
In terms of the topic, I haven't been to any of the cities. But I'd like to visit KC because it reminds of me of Dallas (cow trail and stuff) and St. Louis because of all the things described in this thread. Omaha just isn't big enough yet; this really isn't the right thread for it. And sorry Indy guys: outside of Indianapolis' sphere of influence, most people (I know) think Indy is a pretty average city. Nothing really special about it. Don't get me wrong I love Peyton, but he's in Denver now, so I'm not really gonna be following the Colts anymore. Sorry
So your not going to visit Indianapolis based on OTHERS opinions...........
What happened to your own opinion? curious
Again come visit Indianapolis and be dazzled
So i personally challenge you to come to Indianapolis for a vacation and tell me how it is.
Location: Cleveland bound with MPLS in the rear-view
5,509 posts, read 11,941,826 times
Reputation: 2506
Quote:
Originally Posted by Broadrippleguy
Indy could handle it
We have the Indy 500 coming up thats 400,000 people.
Super Bowl 46 brought in over 1,400,000 people to Downtown Indianapolis over the 10 days of festivites. Making it better than even the Mag Mile and Michigan Avenue in Chicago
Also Timeofseasons quite alot of Michiganders have moved to Indianapolis over the past 10-15 years so the rest of the state doesnt seem to agree with you.
Why would there be 1.4 million VISITORS for the Super Bowl, when the stadium can only hold 70,000 or so? Or are you saying it's 140,000 people per day for 10 days, on average -- a more believable number, but still high for Day-10 from the Super Bowl when nothing major is really going on. Impressive, if true, though! I know Minneapolis and the Vikings are looking at what Indy did right for the Super Bowl to get a Super Bowl bid of their own in 2017.
The Metrodome and the land around it was an urban disaster! However, Minneapolis blatantly tried to steer development away from the Dome and towards the core after the Dome was built, as part of its urban plan at the time. With this new stadium (right on top of where the Dome is/was) I don't see the area gaining much in the way of urban redevelopment because of the new stadium. However, in Minneapolis, the area where the Dome is now is a gateway into the city from the East, is surrounded by high-end residential and amenities to the North, and is surrounded by the country hospital (HCMC) to the South/West. The only open areas/parking lots left near the stadium are going to plazas and tailgating zones, and the remaining parcels are owned by entities such as the Hospital, newspaper and the Vikings Owner (shocker!), so there isn't a ton of worry of what will happen to the area once the stadium is built -- the area is growing with or without the stadium!
This is just another example of history repeating itself, with the hope of a better outcome. One thing is nearly certain: downtown will not be a WORSE place because of the new stadium (but may not be incrementally better, either).
Last edited by west336; 05-21-2012 at 04:39 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
