When are you going to Heaven? (traditions, Mormon, myth, after-life)

[pcamps]

Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme

The Third Person in YHWH, the Holy Spirit, is the "He" in whom we live and move and have our being. We do not have our being in the first Person in YHWH, the Father, who departed the creation in His presence of indwelling Glory at the defilement of it when Adam, [former] son of God of the human being kind, disobeyed His one command and ate the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. That is the first death, which death of separation in our being from the Father of Glory let corruption enter in to the Adam and the creation for the Adam, and therefore, our existence is vain/purposeless/useless, for that Glory indwelling for which we were created to house.

So the Third Person in YHWH is ever present in the creation, but the Father of Glory has never been present in the creation since His departure at the fall, and YHWH in the Person of the Word has come down to this creation since the fall at various times in various ways. The Voice of YHWH is God the Word, and that is the third Person in YHWH, and He is come in second creation human being flesh, and is Jesus the Christ.

The whole reason for the Atonement is to unite the cleansed souls back to the Father's Glory, in the name of the New Man, by the adoption of them into the Living Spirit/Christ, and then, at the regeneration of the body into the New Man image, the adoption into the New Man name, which name is "Israel", as He said, in Isaiah 49.

Yea that's exactly what it says

[yeshuasavedme]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

And I believe Paradise is like Heaven. It's a state inhabited by the spirits of the righteous who have died. It's a spirit realm, a place of peace and rest, but it is not where God is.

Could you explain why you feel this way, because I believe they do.

Paradise means "garden", as Ironmaw said, and the Garden of Eden is Paradise. That Paradise is where the Watcher's dwell and "watch/judge" earth from, in the City of God which is there.
Enoch lives there in his translated to Glory body, and Elijah is there since His "rapture", but he is not translated as he must return to earth to preach Jesus and Him crucified for the salvation of all, in the streets of Jerusalem for three and a half years after the Church is "removed form the midst of the world" before the tribulation.
Moses is also there since his bodily resurrection and ascension in the same body which has not been translated to the body made for Glory, yet, and he is returning with Elijah, when they preach Jesus in the streets of Jerusalem representing the testimony of the Law and the Prophets to Jesus the Christ, to His Person [God come in flesh] and His work [the Atonement, once, for all -for whosoever will call on His name for salvation].


Eden is described in ancient literature as a Mountain of the "breadth of the earth" =the "heavenly realm of[belonging to] this present creation", from which Adam lost place in and access to when he irrevocably defiled his body, soul, and spirit, by his disobedience to the one command.
Mount Eden of the heavenly realm is also called Mount Zion, and the City of God is there where the "spirits of just men made perfect dwell [by the Atonement giving them cleansing and second birth of Spirit], since Jesus opened the gates of Sheol and emptied the "hollow" below, set apart for the righteous, at His entering in to Sheol in victory to "lead captivity captive" and loose all the souls from that separation of the first death, from the presence of the Unseen Father and His Glory indwelling.
They did not wait three days and three nights to ascend to Mount Eden of the heavenly realm when Jesus descended, but they ascended to Eden/Paradise, immediately, when Jesus entered Sheol, dumped the sins of all Adam on Azazel who was chained there, and preached/announced the Good News to the righteous souls, and took them to Paradise, of Mount Eden.

Three days later, He rose from the dead, bodily, and He raised many of the bodies of the saints with Him, to be the Firstfruits of the first harvest of earth's sons of God, with whom He fulfilled the oracle of the day of First of Firstfruits and ascended, mid-morning, to the temple of God in the Heavens, to present them with Himself, as the Firstfruits of earth -just like the Oracles given to the namesake people signed.

Jesus is the Son of Man who "is"/present tense, "in" heaven, even when He was the Son of Man come down from heaven to earth. He is in both places at once, as He said, because His occupation of the body of flesh did not exclude Him from being God in heaven, and He certainly took the righteous to Paradise above, from Sheol below, when He descended to Sheol and ascended with those righteous souls to the City of God, the heavenly Jerusalem.

Jhn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven.

There is a throne in Mount Eden made for the son of man that no Adam person has ever ascended to, even though it was prepared for the Son of Man to rule his dominion from, but YHWH come in flesh as second Man has the right to the dominion of it, and will soon take possession of it, when He casts out the principalities and powers who have ruled in darkness from that realm since the fall of Adam.
`````

Now that is what the Scriptures teach those who study to show themselves approved unto God, workmen that need not to be ashamed.



Mount Eden and the throne of the Son of Man in heaven seen by Enoch, and the description given him of the millennial reign, when the blessed of the LORD who enter into the millennial reign to populate the earth will live for the whole time of that thousand years because the curse is removed from the earth and all the earth is as it was created to be, before the fall. The redeemed of earth eat of that tree in the millennial reign, and they do not die in their bodies, but are translated to glory at the end of the millennial reign [signed by the firstfruits of that last harvest at Tabernacles, and assured of its coming to pass by the 144,000 of the twelve tribes of Israel taken from earth without dying, as firstfruits of that last harvest, and taken to Zion above, mid trib, when Elijah and Moses are resurrected in their changed for the Glory bodies.

1 Enoch
[Chapter 24]
1 And from thence I went to another place of the earth, and he showed me a mountain range of 2 fire which burnt day and night. And I went beyond it and saw seven magnificent mountains all differing each from the other, and the stones (thereof) were magnificent and beautiful, magnificent as a whole, of glorious appearance and fair exterior: three towards the east, one founded on the other, and three towards the south, one upon the other, and deep rough ravines, no one of which 3 joined with any other.



And the seventh mountain was in the midst of these, and it excelled them 4 in height, resembling the seat of a throne: and fragrant trees encircled the throne.



And amongst them was a tree such as I had never yet smelt, neither was any amongst them nor were others like it: it had a fragrance beyond all fragrance, and its leaves and blooms and wood wither not for ever: 5 and its fruit is beautiful, and its fruit resembles the dates of a palm. Then I said: 'How beautiful is this tree, and fragrant, and its leaves are fair, and its blooms very delightful in appearance.' 6 Then answered Michael, one of the holy and honoured angels who was with me, and was their leader.
[Chapter 25]
1 And he said unto me: 'Enoch, why dost thou ask me regarding the fragrance of the tree, 2 and why dost thou wish to learn the truth?' Then I answered him saying: 'I wish to 3 know about everything, but especially about this tree.'



And he answered saying: 'This high mountain which thou hast seen, whose summit is like the throne of God, is His throne, where the Holy Great One, the Lord of Glory, the Eternal King, will sit, when He shall come down to visit 4 the earth with goodness. And as for this fragrant tree no mortal is permitted to touch it till the great judgement, when He shall take vengeance on all and bring (everything) to its consummation 5 for ever.


[then the Millennial reign]

It shall then be given to the righteous and holy. Its fruit shall be for food to the elect: it shall be transplanted to the holy place, to the temple of the Lord, the Eternal King.
6 Then shall they rejoice with joy and be glad,
And into the holy place shall they enter;
And its fragrance shall be in their bones,
And they shall live a long life on earth,
Such as thy fathers lived:
And in their days shall no sorrow or plague
Or torment or calamity touch them.'
7 Then blessed I the God of Glory, the Eternal King, who hath prepared such things for the righteous, and hath created them and promised to give to them.

The summit of that throne on Mount Eden is of Sapphire:

[Chapter 18]
1 I saw the treasuries of all the winds: I saw how He had furnished with them the whole creation 2 and the firm foundations of the earth. And I saw the corner-stone of the earth: I saw the four 3 winds which bear [the earth and] the firmament of the heaven. And I saw how the winds stretch out the vaults of heaven, and have their station between heaven and earth: these are the pillars 4 of the heaven. I saw the winds of heaven which turn and bring the circumference of the sun and 5 all the stars to their setting. I saw the winds on the earth carrying the clouds: I saw the paths 6 of the angels. I saw at the end of the earth the firmament of the heaven above.


And I proceeded and saw a place which burns day and night, where there are seven mountains of magnificent stones, 7 three towards the east, and three towards the south. And as for those towards the east, was of coloured stone, and one of pearl, and one of jacinth, and those towards the south of red stone.

8 But the middle one reached to heaven like the throne of God, of alabaster, and the summit of the 9,10 throne was of sapphire.

And I saw a flaming fire. And beyond these mountains Is a region the end of the great earth: there the heavens were completed. And I saw a deep abyss, with columns of heavenly fire, and among them I saw columns of fire fall, which were beyond measure alike towards 12 the height and towards the depth. And beyond that abyss I saw a place which had no firmament of the heaven above, and no firmly founded earth beneath it: there was no water upon it, and no 13 birds, but it was a waste and horrible place.

This is the "breadth of the earth", which YHWH says no man can measure, in Job.
This is also the "breadth of the earth" in Revelation, where the translated to Glory saints will dwell and be seen to dwell there, and will also with the Holy Watcher angels, rule the earth, during the Millennial reign; and which "City of God in the Breadth of the earth", the loosed Satan and his angels will test men to try to ascend to, in rebellion against God, just like they did the first time, at Babel.

but that last time, they will be destroyed by fire, and this heavens and earth will then melted and regenerated, with no more sin and death forever, in the new creation which is called the 8th day in Scriptures, and the New Beginning.

[yeshuasavedme]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

That's interesting. Another "translation gotcha." The KJV doesn't say "paradise" at all. It says the "third heaven." So we're kind of back where we were when we were discussing the comma in the verse that spoke of Jesus' conversation with the repentant thief.

If there is no place that God is not, then He is here on earth and we are currently in His presence and already in Heaven. I don't believe we are; do you?

The KJV says the third heaven is Paradise.

2Cr 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth)
2Cr 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

God is not and has never been, since the fall, present in all three Persons on this earth, because the earth is not yet translated for the Glory, at which time the heavens and the earth will be united with the Unseen Father in His Glory, through the Son.

YHWH in the Person of the Glory does not visit the earth.
YHWH in the Person of the Word, who bears the Glory, alone, has always visited the earth in different times and manners, since the departure of the Glory, which is the separation of the first death, and which first death happened at the time of the corruption entering it at the fall
YHWH in the Person of the Holy Spirit has never departed this earth since the creation of it, and works to lead men to the knowledge of the Light that lights every man that comes into the world, which Light is Christ.
He, the Holy Spirit, only testifies of Christ, as Jesus said.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by katjonjj

So God is the creator of ALL but only the religious father of some?

Religion is funny... in Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, the creator is the father... How is it that God created all but is not the "father" and "author" of all because of your religious beliefs not because God says he is not.

So how do you suppose someone could create a person and not be it's father?

You're absolutely right, katjonjj. The Bible specifically says that we are God's "offspring" and that He is the "father of [our] spirits." It does use the word "offspring," as opposed to "creations."

[yeshuasavedme]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

You're absolutely right, katjonjj. The Bible specifically says that we are God's "offspring" and that He is the "father of [our] spirits." It does use the word "offspring," as opposed to "creations."

Not.
It says He is the father of spirits.
Wind, rain, lightning, dew, stars, and all forces, in the Scriptures, are His "created" spirits, and they have no flesh. They answer to Him who created them to do what their created natures are ordained to do, and they obey and praise Him.

Job 38:35 Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go, and say unto thee, Here we [are]?

Psa 148:1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise ye the LORD from the heavens: praise him in the heights.

Psa 148:2 Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.
Psa 148:3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light.

Psa 148:4 Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that [be] above the heavens.

Psa 148:5 Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.

Psa 148:6 He hath also stablished them for ever and ever: he hath made a decree which shall not pass.

Psa 148:7 Praise the LORD from the earth, ye dragons, and all deeps:

Psa 148:8 Fire, and hail; snow, and vapour; stormy wind fulfilling his word:

Psa 148:9 Mountains, and all hills; fruitful trees, and all cedars:

Psa 148:10 Beasts, and all cattle; creeping things, and flying fowl:
Psa 148:11 Kings of the earth, and all people; princes, and all judges of the earth:
Psa 148:12 Both young men, and maidens; old men, and children:
Psa 148:13 Let them praise the name of the LORD: for his name alone is excellent; his glory [is] above the earth and heaven.
Psa 148:14 He also exalteth the horn of his people, the praise of all his saints; [even] of the children of Israel, a people near unto him. Praise ye the LORD.


Psa 89:8 O YHWH Elohym of hosts, who [is] a strong YHWH like unto thee? or to thy faithfulness round about thee? Psa 89:9 Thou rulest the raging of the sea: when the waves thereof arise, thou stillest them.

Mar 4:39 And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm. Mar 4:41 And they feared exceedingly, and said one to another, What manner of man/anthropos/human being is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him?

Each individual plant kind of His creation is also a spirit with its own "house formed" by the nature of the created spirit, for that spirit to do its natural created purpose in; like trees of the field and flowers, etc, and they obey and praise Him.

The spirits of all flesh were created by Him. The flesh of all spirits are the houses for the spirits to do what they were created by the Creator to do, to be what the Creator created them to be.
for instance: apple flesh is apple flesh because apple spirit makes the apple in the nature of itself, as it was ordained to do in the beginning of creation. Just so, all spirits of all flesh are the forces of the nature of each created kind.

So no, the Creator God does not have sex as a married exalted flesh and bone man to make "spirit offspring" by sexual union with a flesh and bone goddess Mormon wife, in a so called heaven of Mormon doctrine theology, so as to procreate "spirits" that will come "incarnate" in Adam flesh! -that Mormon doctrine is not a biblical doctrine, and nowhere in the Scriptures is God ever called a married man who has sex with a flesh and bone wife to impregnate her with spirit offspring, except in the 19th century "new religion" invention of Joseph Smith, called "Mormonism".

"And He yatsar =formed/created the spirit of Adam within Adam". Adam is not an incarnation of a so called spirit offspring of a Mormon god in human flesh. The Adam spirit is "human". It is what "human" is, by its nature.

yatsar
1) to form, fashion, frame

Zec 12:1
The burden of the word of YHWH for Israel, saith the YHWH, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth/yatsar the spirit of Adam/man within him.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed/yatsar Adam/man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
The flesh is formed/yatsar from the dust, and the spirit is formed/yatsar within the flesh.

[Ironmaw1776]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

That's interesting. Another "translation gotcha." The KJV doesn't say "paradise" at all. It says the "third heaven." So we're kind of back where we were when we were discussing the comma in the verse that spoke of Jesus' conversation with the repentant thief.

If there is no place that God is not, then He is here on earth and we are currently in His presence and already in Heaven. I don't believe we are; do you?

Well the Greek word which is translated as third heavens or paradise is "paradeisos"... It means Garden literally ... it is only used three times in the bible ... And never in conjuction with the dead or with the bosom of abraham or with hades etc. Hades is the grave, so if you take the parable of Christ literally and believe that the bosom of Abraham is in Hades then you believe that the bosom of Abraham is underground and that would mean paradise is underground, but we are told that the man Paul knew was "Caught up" into paradise.

I believe the holy spirit(spirit of Christ/God) is here with us, and that the kingdom of heaven is within those of us that believe on Christ. But when i am referring to Gods omnipresents, i am not referring to his throne.

Originally Posted by Katzpur

I asked you first.

I posted all the scriptures that speak of "paradeisos" already. And as i said i do not see any scriptural reference to it being the realm of dead Christians. That is why i asked ... What makes you believe that "paradeisos" is in fact the realm of dead Christians?

[Ironmaw1776]

Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme

Not.
It says He is the father of spirits.
Wind, rain, lightning, dew, stars, and all forces, in the Scriptures, are His "created" spirits, and they have no flesh. They answer to Him who created them to do what their created natures are ordained to do, and they obey and praise Him. Each individual plant kind of His creation is also a spirit with its own "house formed" by the nature of the created spirit, for that spirit to do its natural created purpose in; like trees of the field and flowers, etc, and they obey and praise Him.

The spirits of all flesh were created by Him. The flesh of all spirits are the houses for the spirits to do what they were created by the Creator to do, to be what the Creator created them to be.
for instance: apple flesh is apple flesh because apple spirit makes the apple in the nature of itself, as it was ordained to do in the beginning of creation. Just so, all spirits of all flesh are the forces of the nature of each created kind.

So no, the Creator God does not have sex as a married exalted flesh and bone man to make "spirit offspring" by sexual union with a flesh and bone goddess Mormon wife, in a so called heaven of Mormon doctrine theology, so as to procreate "spirits" that will come "incarnate" in Adam flesh! -that Mormon doctrine is not a biblical doctrine, and nowhere in the Scriptures is God ever called a married man who has sex with a flesh and bone wife to impregnate her with spirit offspring, except in the 19th century "new religion" invention of Joseph Smith, called "Mormonism".

"And He yatsar =formed/created the spirit of Adam within Adam". Adam is not an incarnation of a so called spirit offspring of a Mormon god in human flesh. The Adam spirit is "human". It is what "human" is, by its nature.Zec 12:1
The burden of the word of YHWH for Israel, saith the YHWH, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth/yatsar the spirit of Adam/man within him.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed/yatsar Adam/man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
The flesh is formed/yatsar from the dust, and the spirit is formed/yatsar within the flesh.

Actually they are referring to Act 17:28 ... Here Paul is speaking with the stoics(pagan philosophers). He tells them that all people are the offspring(genos) of God ...

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776

Well the Greek word which is translated as third heavens or paradise is "paradeisos"... It means Garden literally ... it is only used three times in the bible ... And never in conjuction with the dead or with the bosom of abraham or with hades etc. Hades is the grave, so if you take the parable of Christ literally and believe that the bosom of Abraham is in Hades then you believe that the bosom of Abraham is underground and that would mean paradise is underground, but we are told that the man Paul knew was "Caught up" into paradise.

I don't believe that Hades is underground, and I'm not sure why you are interpreting "the grave" in such a literal manner. Yes, Hades is where, according to early Christian and Jewish thought, the place where the spirits of the dead went to await the resurrection. It was "the underworld" but not necessarily someplace buried deep within the earth.

I posted all the scriptures that speak of "paradeisos" already. And as i said i do not see any scriptural reference to it being the realm of dead Christians. That is why i asked ... What makes you believe that "paradeisos" is in fact the realm of dead Christians?

Granted, it is not specifically taught in the Bible -- nor is your interpretation. I can tell you, though, that several of the early Church fathers held to the same interpretation I do. I can post some quotes for you, but I'm kind of thinking they wouldn't really influence your position.

[yeshuasavedme]

Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776

Actually they are referring to Act 17:28 ... Here Paul is speaking with the stoics(pagan philosophers). He tells them that all people are the offspring(genos) of God ...

He tells them that "in Him we live and move and have our being", and that all nations are of one blood -meaning of one flesh, bone, and blood, and also all Adam shares the one created human being kind spirit, which is the nature or force that makes Adam to "be", "Adam", in Adam's nature.

If the Mormons want human beings to be the offspring of God because the Scriptures say that God is "the Father of spirits", then, as my post stated, God is also the Father of the lightning, wind, water, dew -and so on and so forth- whom, by Mormon doctrine theology, would have to be his sexually begotten "spirit offspring" also!!!

Now when a Mormon claims that human beings are the spirit born children of the Mormon god, they mean that their god has a wife [wives] and has sex with them, and they get pregnant with children, who are born as "spirits", in Mormon heaven.
To be made human beings, then, those Mormon god offspring [who are begotten by sexual union between two flesh and blood and bone gods and goddesses who are just "exalted human beings", in Mormon heaven], have to be "incarnatd" -into a body of flesh in the womb of a flesh bodied human being on earth.
Their Mormon god is an exalted human being flesh and bone god, and his wife [wives] are also flesh bodied women, and when they get pregnant by the Mormon god, they bear offspring that are not flesh and blood, says the Mormon religion theology.

None of the doctrine of Mormonism on God or human beings is biblical in any shape, manner, or form.

Originally Posted by Katzpur
You're absolutely right, katjonjj. The Bible specifically says that we are God's "offspring" and that He is the "father of [our] spirits." It does use the word "offspring," as opposed to "creations."

The word offspring in that context is "kind". We are made in the image of God, in the very "tupos" of the similitude/tselem/image of God the Word, who was to come and is come, in flesh, and so the Godhead is "not like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device".

That is the context of the statement Paul made in Acts, to the pagans, and verses proving that we are made in the image and tupos of "God the Word" who was to come and is come in flesh, are Genesis 1:26-28, and Romans 5:14 -besides others.

[yeshuasavedme]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

I don't believe that Hades is underground, and I'm not sure why you are interpreting "the grave" in such a literal manner. Yes, Hades is where, according to early Christian and Jewish thought, the place where the spirits of the dead went to await the resurrection. It was "the underworld" but not necessarily someplace buried deep within the earth.

Granted, it is not specifically taught in the Bible -- nor is your interpretation. I can tell you, though, that several of the early Church fathers held to the same interpretation I do. I can post some quotes for you, but I'm kind of thinking they wouldn't really influence your position.

Paradise, the Garden which God the Word planted and placed Adam in, is specifically taught in the Word of God to be "eastward, in Eden".

And whether you believe Sheol is beneath the earth or not is not of weight when compared with the Scriptures, which define Sheol/Hades as beneath this earth and as the place where the departed dead [disembodied] souls go to, to await their appointed day. Before the cross all go, after the cross, none redeemed souls go there, but go to be with Jesus Christ in Paradise above, to await the resurrection of their bodies to the image of His glorious New Man body.

Gen 2:8 ¶ And the LORD God planted a garden/gan eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Hebrew gan1) garden, enclosure
a) enclosed garden

Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise/Garden of God.


Paradise:

1) among the Persians a grand enclosure or preserve, hunting ground, park, shady and well watered, in which wild animals, were kept for the hunt; it was enclosed by walls and furnished with towers for the hunters
2) a garden, pleasure ground
a) grove, park
3) the part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls of pious until the resurrection: but some understand this to be a heavenly paradise


4) the upper regions of the heavens. According to the early church Fathers, the paradise in which our first parents dwelt before the fall still exists, neither on the earth or in the heavens, but above and beyond the world
5) heaven