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To that, I'll repeat what I said in the "revelations" thread:
God's "additional" revelation is revealing what His written word says. The written word can be translated 1000 different ways, but the Spirit will not lead us astray from what it says. He will simply reveal the truth that is otherwise a mystery - the Bible is a spiritual book about God (who is spirit) and our spirit. His spirit is the only one that can reveal truth.
As we grow in His knowledge (about Him and in Him), we will see things that were there all along, but couldn't receive them - not for an unknown reason, but that we haven't yet been conformed to His image by the renewing of our mind, and the flesh has not been dealt with at that time.As the cross is applied to us, we are able to accept what is otherwise an offense to the carnal mind.
The Holy Spirit does not lead anyone astray, but 'Satan deceives the whole world' (Revelation 12:9).
If someone promotes anything other than what the word of God reveals, then that person is not being led by the Spirit but is under Satanic deception. We are held responsible to rightly divide the word of truth. (2 Tim. 2:15) One step in rightly dividing the word of truth is to understand dispensations. Another is to understand that the Bible teaches eternal condemnation for those who reject Christ as Savior.
The Bible contains the complete revelation of God to man with regard to what He has chosen to reveal. And contained in that revelation is the eternal fate of those who die without having accepted God's offer of salvation through faith in Christ.
Example:
Matthew 7:23 'And then I wil declare to them, 'I NEVER KNEW YOU; DEPART FROM ME, you who practice lawlessness (unbelievers.)
Matthew 25:41 'Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed one, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels. 46) ''And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.'
There are no second chances after death. God does not revoke His sentencing to the lake of fire those who rejected His free gift of salvation through faith in Christ. At no point in the eternal future will God compromise His holiness by allowing those who rejected Christ while alive on the earth, to enter into an eternal relationship with Him. That is completely contrary to God's nature and it is contrary to the reason why God created man. The word of God is explicit on this. Satan has deceived many. It is Satan who promotes the idea that all will be saved in order to lull into a false sense of security those who he may, and thereby through their carelessness and having been deceived, never believe in Christ for eternal salvation and therefore remain lost forever.
Last edited by Michael Way; 02-06-2010 at 01:23 PM..
The Holy Spirit does not lead anyone astray, but 'Satan deceives the whole world' (Revelation 12:9).
There is no deception in lacking knowledge when the development is underway - God has more patience with us than we do - this forum is proof.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
If someone promotes anything other than what the word of God reveals, then that person is not being led by the Spirit but is under Satanic deception.
If what I believe comes directly from the word of God, then you are displaying nothing but hatred by saying others are under "Satanic deception".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
We are held responsible to rightly divide the word of truth. (2 Tim. 2:15) One step in rightly dividing the word of truth is to understand dispensations. Another is to understand that the Bible teaches eternal condemnation for those who reject Christ as Savior.
I believe in the eternal damnation for the carnal nature. If you do not believe that God is the saviour of all men, then am I to say the same horrible things about you, because I see it and you don't?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
The Bible contains the complete revelation of God to man with regard to what He has chosen to reveal. And contained in that revelation is the eternal fate of those who die without having accepted God's offer of salvation through faith in Christ.
God reveals Himself in His sovereign timing - that's why you saw the light when you did, and not before. The same goes for depths of revelation - the fact that we're disagreeing shows that everything is not swallowed at the same rate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
Example:
Matthew 7:23 'And then I wil declare to them, 'I NEVER KNEW YOU; DEPART FROM ME, you who practice lawlessness (unbelievers.)
Matthew 25:41 'Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed one, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels. 46) ''And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.'
Most scholars today will say words to the effect: "We must remember that most men die in unbelief; and, following the day of judging, will enter the second death. Therefore, on hermeneutical if not philological grounds, we must conclude that kolasin aio~nion must here be understood as tantamount to if not expressive of an endless series of eons, each one comprised of unspeakable torments."
We would respond to such claims by saying that, first of all, any such assertions are wholly undiscerning as to the theme in view in Matthew 25:31-46. But even apart from this, in any case, no such conclusion follows from those premises stated above, assertions with which, in themselves, we wholly concur, apart from their misuse in such a faulty syllogism. And, we would add that any claims, lingering in the background of such premises, to the effect that today is the only day of salvation or that death will never be abolished, are false claims.
Salvation, ultimately speaking, is a gracious gift, not a reward. It is achieved in the grace of God through the work of Christ. Monotheism is true; dualism is false. Monergism is true; synergism is false. Sola gratia. Soli Deo gloria.
God wills all mankind to be saved and to come into a realization of the truth (1 Tim.2:4). He is operating ALL in accord with the counsel of His will (Eph.1:11). All His counsel shall be confirmed, and all His desire He will do (Isa.46:10). Christ is giving Himself a correspondent Ransom for all (1 Tim.2:6). If One died for the sake of all, consequently all died (2 Cor.5:14). One who dies has been justified from Sin (Rom.6:7b).
What do you make of this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
There are no second chances after death. God does not revoke His sentencing to the lake of fire those who rejected His free gift of salvation through faith in Christ. At no point in the eternal future will God compromise His holiness by allowing those who rejected Christ while alive on the earth, to enter into an eternal relationship with Him.
Don't you see that there is a way to take a big chunk out of you and banish it forever, and still save your (now) cleansed spirit?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
That is completely contrary to God's nature
Here's God's nature:
Hear the law respecting...
Bondmen, (Deut. 15:12-15)
Strangers, (Exod. 22:21/ Lev. 19:33,34)
Debtors, (Deut. 15:1,2,9)
Widows & orphans, (Exo.22:22/ Deut. 24:17)
and the punishment of the wicked, which may not exceed forty stripes,
"lest if it exceed, then thy brother should seem vile unto thee; (Deut. 25:2,3) yea even the law respecting "asses fallen into a pit:" (Ex. 21:33,34/ Deut.23: 4,5)
--hear the prophets exhorting to "break every yoke," to "let the oppressed go free," and to "undo the heavy burdens:" (Isa. 58:6)
--hear the still clearer witness of the gospel, "not to let the sun go down upon our wrath," (Eph. 4:26) to "forgive not until seven times, but until seventy times seven," (Matt. 18:22) "not to be overcome of evil, but to overcome evil with good:" (Rom. 12:21) to "walk in love as Christ has loved us," and to be imitators of God as dear children:" (Eph. 5:1,2)
--see the judgment of those who neglect the poor, and the naked, and the hungry, and the stranger, and the prisoner: (Matt.25:41-43)--and then say,
Shall God do that which He abhors? Shall He command that bondmen and debtors be freed, and yet Himself keep those who are in worse bondage and under a greater debt in endless imprisonment? Shall He bid us care for widows and orphans, and Himself forget this widowed nature, which has lost its Head and Lord, and those poor orphan souls which cannot cry, Abba, Father? Shall He limit punishment to forty strips, "lest thy brother seem vile," and Himself inflict more upon those who though fallen still are His children.? Is not Christ the faithful Israelite, who fulfills the law; and shall He break it in any one of these particulars?
Shall He say, "Forgive till seventy times seven," and Himself not forgive except in this short life? Shall He command us to "overcome evil with good," and Himself, the Almighty, be overcome of evil?
Shall He judge those who leave the captives unvisited, and Himself leave captives in a worse prison for ever unvisited? Does He not again and again appeal to our own natural feelings of mercy, as witnessing "how much more" we may expect a larger mercy from our "Father which is in heaven"? (Matt. 7:6-11 If it were otherwise, might not the adversary reproach, and say, Thou that teachest and judgest another, teachest Thou not thyself? Not thus will God be justified. But, blessed be His Name, He shall in all be justified. and when in His day He opens "the treasures of the hail," (Job 38:22) and shows what sweet waters He can bring out of hard hailstones; when He unlocks "the place where light now dwells" shut up, and reveals what light is hid in darkness and hardness, as we see in coal and flint, those silent witnesses of the dark hard hearts, which God can turn to floods of light; when we have "taken darkness to the bound thereof," (Job 38:19,20) and have seen not only how "the earth is full of God's riches," but how He has laid up the depths in storehouses; (Psl. 104: 24...Psl. 33:7) in that day when "the mystery of God is finished," and He has destroyed them which corrupt the earth," (Rev. 11:18)--then shall it be seen how truly God's judgments are love, and that "in very faithfulness He hath afflicted us." (Psl. 119:75)
We are championing the rule and reign of the Father, and of His Christ.
Since the Bible states that the resurrection of believers is the FIRST resurrection (Rev. 20:6), that means there is a Second resurrection. That second resurrection is described in Revelation 20:13 'And the sea gave up the dead whcih were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14) And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. 15) And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
You have only to read Revelation 20:4-5 to see that there is a thousand year difference between two stages of the first resurrection. And neither of those stages deal with the rapture of the church which occurs before either of the two stages mentioned in Revelation 20:4-5.
Read the link on dispensations and study it. If you disagree with it then you disagree with it. Your disagreement doesn't alter the facts.
Until 1948 the nation Israel did not exist since the dispersion of the Jews in A.D. 70. I did a thread which I think I called 'Israel regathered', which provides several hours of audio lessons which explains the significance of Israel being back in the land.
This establishes that we are near the end of the church age dispensation.
The resurrected church is seen in Heaven after having been raptured prior to the Tribulation, in Revelation 19:7. The church has been raptured, the judgment seat of Christ has already taken place and now, in Rev. 19:7 ''...the bride has made herself ready.'' 8) And it was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.'' (Verse 8 is a reference to the Judgment seat of Christ which has already occured as of this verse.) In Revelation 19:11 Christ is getting ready to return to the earth at the end of the Tribulation and the church-His bride, is returning with Him.
Notice that in Matthew 25 'But when the Son of Man comes in His glory (the Second Advent),and all the angels with Him,' no believers have been 'caught up into the air to be with the Lord.' 1Thess. 4:13-18. Instead, the nations consisting of both unbelievers and believers will be gathered before Christ. The surviving Tribulational believers of those nations will be gathered on the right side of Christ, and the surviving unbelievers of the Tribulation will be placed on His left, and they will be ordered into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41,46) . The surviving Tribulational believers will then populate the Millennial Kingdom in their mortal bodies.
The church age believers will have returned with Christ in their resurrected bodies and those previously resurrected church age believers who overcame, will rule with Christ during His Millennial reign (Revelation 2:26.)
To deny dispensations, including the Millennium, is to completely ignore what the Bible says about the matter. The link provided goes into detail about what the scriptures say about it.
Open your eyes those of you who deny the Pre-Tribulational rapture of the church. Rightly divide the word of truth.
Like I said Mike, milleniumism is the practice of taking headlines (1948 the nation Israel) and looking for some verse to make it fit a timelime.
There is only one return, one judgement....Rev 1:7
Rev is symbolic. The description of Jesus in Rev is symbolic Rev 1:13. Its numbers are symbolic. God's time is not earth time 2 Peter 3:8.
Like I said Mike, milleniumism is the practice of taking headlines (1948 the nation Israel) and looking for some verse to make it fit a timelime.
There is only one return, one judgement....Rev 1:7
Rev is symbolic. The description of Jesus in Rev is symbolic Rev 1:13. Its numbers are symbolic. God's time is not earth time 2 Peter 3:8.
The kingdom of God was offered to the Jews by Jesus. If Israel had not rejected Christ as the Messiah he would have brought in the kingdom age right after the Cross. Since Israel did reject Christ as He had always known that they would, the Millennium was postphoned until after His Second Advent. This rejection of Christ by the Jews is when Jesus turned His attention toward the establishment of the church, the first mention of which is in Matthew 16:18. The Millennium is a literal one thousand year period in which Christ will rule from the throne of David in Jersusalem following His second advent. Isaiah 2:1-4. Zechariah 14:9-21; Psalms 72:8-11,17-19; Daniel 7:14; Isa. 2:3-4; Isa. 11:2-10 and so very many more passages all deal with the yet future Millennium.
Regarding Revelation. There is much symbolism in it. It is not all symbolic. And it is easy to tell when symbolism is being used.
Revelation 19:7 is not symbolic. It is literal. It is the church in Heaven after the judgment seat of Christ. 1 Cor. 3:12-15; 2 Cor. 5:10; Romans 14:10-12. Revelation 19:8 is the final inspection of the brides purity after the judgment seat and before the return of Christ to the earth with the Church.
When Christ returns to the earth, those church age believers who overcame will rule with Him. 2 Timothy 2:12, Revelation 2:26.
If you want to know the significence of modern day Israel being back in the land, then listen to the second half of lesson number two and all of lesson number three. And preferably, listen to all the lessons. They are quite educational.
I can't make anyone listen to these and I wouldn't if I could. But they are there for the benefit of whosoever will simply listen to them. There are a number of passages which speak of the current nation of Israel being partially regathered in a state of unbelief in preparation for the final full regathering of ALL Israel in a state of belief at the Second Advent of Christ.
Last edited by Michael Way; 02-06-2010 at 05:25 PM..
There is no deception in lacking knowledge when the development is underway - God has more patience with us than we do - this forum is proof.
If what I believe comes directly from the word of God, then you are displaying nothing but hatred by saying others are under "Satanic deception".
Universalism is not from the word of God. It is from Satan himself. As noted in Revelation 12, 'Satan deceives the world.' The Bible is clear that those who die without Christ are lost forever. The Bible makes the clear distinction between those who have eternal life and those who will not see life. Matthew 25:46, John 3:36. The contrast between the two is clear and it is eternal.
Quote:
I believe in the eternal damnation for the carnal nature. If you do not believe that God is the saviour of all men, then am I to say the same horrible things about you, because I see it and you don't?
God reveals Himself in His sovereign timing - that's why you saw the light when you did, and not before. The same goes for depths of revelation - the fact that we're disagreeing shows that everything is not swallowed at the same rate.
God holds you responsible for what you believe or don't believe. It is your responsibility to rightly divide the word of truth. There is nothing in the Bible that teaches all men will be saved.
Quote:
Most scholars today will say words to the effect: "We must remember that most men die in unbelief; and, following the day of judging, will enter the second death. Therefore, on hermeneutical if not philological grounds, we must conclude that kolasin aio~nion must here be understood as tantamount to if not expressive of an endless series of eons, each one comprised of unspeakable torments."
We would respond to such claims by saying that, first of all, any such assertions are wholly undiscerning as to the theme in view in Matthew 25:31-46. But even apart from this, in any case, no such conclusion follows from those premises stated above, assertions with which, in themselves, we wholly concur, apart from their misuse in such a faulty syllogism. And, we would add that any claims, lingering in the background of such premises, to the effect that today is the only day of salvation or that death will never be abolished, are false claims.
Salvation, ultimately speaking, is a gracious gift, not a reward. It is achieved in the grace of God through the work of Christ. Monotheism is true; dualism is false. Monergism is true; synergism is false. Sola gratia. Soli Deo gloria.
God wills all mankind to be saved and to come into a realization of the truth (1 Tim.2:4). He is operating ALL in accord with the counsel of His will (Eph.1:11). All His counsel shall be confirmed, and all His desire He will do (Isa.46:10). Christ is giving Himself a correspondent Ransom for all (1 Tim.2:6). If One died for the sake of all, consequently all died (2 Cor.5:14). One who dies has been justified from Sin (Rom.6:7b).
What do you make of this?
1 Tim. 2:4 '... God desires all men to be saved.'
Greek word THELEI. Strong's number G2309:
1) to will, have in mind, intend.
a.) to be resolved, or determined, to purpose.
b.) to desire, or wish
It is God's desire that all men be saved. It is NOT God's will to save any who reject the Gospel; who reject Christ. There are numerous passages that are explicit in declaring that all men will NOT be saved.
Christ died for all men, but not all men will be saved. Salvation is contengent upon faith in Christ.
Quote:
Don't you see that there is a way to take a big chunk out of you and banish it forever, and still save your (now) cleansed spirit?
The sin nature (Carnal nature) of believers is destroyed at the death of the body. Those who die without accepting Christ as Savior die in their sins. John 8:24. It is the unbeliever himself who is ordered into the lake of fire forever. Matthew 25:41,46.
Quote:
Here's God's nature:
Hear the law respecting...
Bondmen, (Deut. 15:12-15)
Strangers, (Exod. 22:21/ Lev. 19:33,34)
Debtors, (Deut. 15:1,2,9)
Widows & orphans, (Exo.22:22/ Deut. 24:17)
and the punishment of the wicked, which may not exceed forty stripes,
"lest if it exceed, then thy brother should seem vile unto thee; (Deut. 25:2,3) yea even the law respecting "asses fallen into a pit:" (Ex. 21:33,34/ Deut.23: 4,5)
--hear the prophets exhorting to "break every yoke," to "let the oppressed go free," and to "undo the heavy burdens:" (Isa. 58:6)
--hear the still clearer witness of the gospel, "not to let the sun go down upon our wrath," (Eph. 4:26) to "forgive not until seven times, but until seventy times seven," (Matt. 18:22) "not to be overcome of evil, but to overcome evil with good:" (Rom. 12:21) to "walk in love as Christ has loved us," and to be imitators of God as dear children:" (Eph. 5:1,2)
--see the judgment of those who neglect the poor, and the naked, and the hungry, and the stranger, and the prisoner: (Matt.25:41-43)--and then say,
Shall God do that which He abhors? Shall He command that bondmen and debtors be freed, and yet Himself keep those who are in worse bondage and under a greater debt in endless imprisonment? Shall He bid us care for widows and orphans, and Himself forget this widowed nature, which has lost its Head and Lord, and those poor orphan souls which cannot cry, Abba, Father? Shall He limit punishment to forty strips, "lest thy brother seem vile," and Himself inflict more upon those who though fallen still are His children.? Is not Christ the faithful Israelite, who fulfills the law; and shall He break it in any one of these particulars?
Shall He say, "Forgive till seventy times seven," and Himself not forgive except in this short life? Shall He command us to "overcome evil with good," and Himself, the Almighty, be overcome of evil?
Shall He judge those who leave the captives unvisited, and Himself leave captives in a worse prison for ever unvisited? Does He not again and again appeal to our own natural feelings of mercy, as witnessing "how much more" we may expect a larger mercy from our "Father which is in heaven"? (Matt. 7:6-11 If it were otherwise, might not the adversary reproach, and say, Thou that teachest and judgest another, teachest Thou not thyself? Not thus will God be justified. But, blessed be His Name, He shall in all be justified. and when in His day He opens "the treasures of the hail," (Job 38:22) and shows what sweet waters He can bring out of hard hailstones; when He unlocks "the place where light now dwells" shut up, and reveals what light is hid in darkness and hardness, as we see in coal and flint, those silent witnesses of the dark hard hearts, which God can turn to floods of light; when we have "taken darkness to the bound thereof," (Job 38:19,20) and have seen not only how "the earth is full of God's riches," but how He has laid up the depths in storehouses; (Psl. 104: 24...Psl. 33:7) in that day when "the mystery of God is finished," and He has destroyed them which corrupt the earth," (Rev. 11:18)--then shall it be seen how truly God's judgments are love, and that "in very faithfulness He hath afflicted us." (Psl. 119:75)
We are championing the rule and reign of the Father, and of His Christ.
Universalism champions the cause of Satan in which he seeks to lull the human race into thinking that all will be saved. This is an effort on his part to prevent as many as he can from recognizing the urgency of believing in Christ before it is too late.
Christ did indeed die for all. He paid the penalty for every sin in the human race. This took sin out of the way as an issue in salvation. But unless a person believes in Christ for salvation, he will still die in his sins, and remain under the same eternal condemnation that he was born into the world with.
The issue in salvation is not sin, but rather, attitude toward Christ. And the opportunity for choosing is the time between physical birth and physical death. Hebrews 9:27 'And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment.'
To persist in the erronious belief, to persist in the false doctrine of universalism is to remain under Satanic deception.
And there are those who KNOW that it is false and continue to push it anyway, in an effort to deceive others. These are wolves in sheeps clothing.
Those universalists who are themselves simply deceived don't understand the holiness of God in having to eternally separate from Himself those who reject His offer of salvation through faith in Christ.
Alright. This thread is NOT about universalism. There are a number of threads which are addressing this heinous atrocity. I would prefer to keep this thread on track concerning dispensations.
Mike,
If anyone claims that a literal 1000 year reign occurs (knowing or not) can then predict the return by simple math. It does matter that you may not know the first date, but whatever it is, anybody living could calculate what the second one will be.
The other problem is that this plays to the lie of "a second chance" for the unbeliever. We both agree that UR offers "second chance". But that is what the literal 1000 year does, allows unbelievers to have a second chance between the 2 returns.
Revelation 19:7 is symbolic. Jesus isn't a literal lamb, nor believers are a literal bride. Rev 19:8 confirms this symbolism when it speaks about the fine linen.
8Fine linen, bright and clean,
was given her to wear." (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.) Rev 19:8
Revelation needs to be understood that it's not written as a chroniclogical order of events of the world that starts with chapter 4 ending with chapter 22. It should be read with the understanding that Rev is God view of the history of the world, the attacks by the devil on the church, Jesus' victory, with a sudden end\destruction of the world. Rev 5-6
This theme (Rev 5-6) is repeated multiple times. Throughout Rev, John is seeing the same event only from a different view and descriptions from God's perspective.
Mike,
If anyone claims that a literal 1000 year reign occurs (knowing or not) can then predict the return by simple math. It does matter that you may not know the first date, but whatever it is, anybody living could calculate what the second one will be.
I don't know what you are trying to say here. The Millennium occurs AFTER the Second Advent of Christ.
Rapture-->7 Year Tribulation on earth/at the same time, the church is in Heaven at the judgment seat of Christ-->Second Advent of Christ/the church returns with Christ-->Thousand year Millennial kingdom-the kingdom age-->second resurrection which is for all unbelievers-->Great White Thone judgment-->All unbelievers are cast into the lake of fire forever.
Quote:
The other problem is that this plays to the lie of "a second chance" for the unbeliever. We both agree that UR offers "second chance". But that is what the literal 1000 year does, allows unbelievers to have a second chance between the 2 returns.
The Millennium has no bearing whatsoever on a second chance for the unbeliever. All unbelievers who die go into that part of Hades called 'Torments'. And according to the way Matthew 25:41 reads, the unbelievers who are alive on the earth at the time that Christ returns at the end of the Tribulation may well be cast into the lake of fire (just as the beast and the false prophet are) as opposed to Hades. Matthew 25:41 says, '...Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.' Regardless of whether Hades or the lake of fire is in view in Matthew 25:41, the unbeliever is incarcerated until the end of the thousand year Millennial kingdom when he is then resurrected, and stands before Christ at the Great White Throne judgment as per Revelation 20:11-15 and he is then cast into the lake of fire forever. There is no second chance for the unbeliever at all.
Quote:
Revelation 19:7 is symbolic. Jesus isn't a literal lamb, nor believers are a literal bride. Rev 19:8 confirms this symbolism when it speaks about the fine linen.
The church is literally the bride of Christ.
quote
(19:7) Bride of Christ, Summary: ''The marriage of the Lamb'' (lit, ''the marriage supper of the Lamb'') is the consummation of the marriage of Christ and the Church as His bride. The figure is according to the oriental pattern of marriage covering three stages: (1) the betrothal, legally binding when the individual members of the body of Christ are saved; (2) the coming of the Bridegroom for His bride at the rapture of the Church; and (3) the marriage supper of the Lamb, ocurring in connection with the second coming of Christ to establish His millennial kingdom. The Lamb's wife is to be contrasted with the harlot of 17:1; and she is also to be distinquished from Israel, the unfaithful wife of the LORD (Jehovah) in historic times, who is to be restored in the millennium (Isa. 54:1-10; Hos. 2:1-17)
unquote
(New Scofield Reference Edition, footnote for Rev. 19:7, p. 1371)
The church is the bride of Christ (literally). The church has a very special relationship with Christ. At the rapture the church is designated as the bride of Christ. And at the judgment seat of Christ the bride has been made ready. When Christ returns at the end of the Tribulation to the earth and the church returns with Him, the wedding supper takes place on the earth.
Quote:
8Fine linen, bright and clean,
was given her to wear." (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.) Rev 19:8
The fine linen is the outer garment worn by believers that represents the righteous acts of the saints (the works that at the judgment seat of Christ are determined to be 'gold, silver, and precious stones.' This garment will be different for each believer according to the degree of his rewards at the bema seat of Christ This outer garment is worn over the inner garment which represents the imputed righteousness of God that every believer possesses.
quote
(19:8) The garment in Scripture is a smbol of righteousness. In the bad ethical sense it symbolizes self-righteousness, e.g. Isa. 64:6, See Phil.3:6-8 showing the best that a moral and religious man under law could do. In the good ethical sense the garment symbolizes (1) the basic provision of God's salvation by grace through faith in Christ, ''the garments of salvation...the robe of righteousness [Gk, dikaiosune]'' (Isa. 61:10;Rom. 3:21, note); and (2) the garment of ''fine linen...the righteousnesses [lit., or ''righteous deeds,'' from Gk. dikaioma] of saints,'' as here in v.8, works of godliness and goodness produced by the Holy Spirit, as the believer judges the flesh and yields himself to God (Rom. 13:14). These are the ''good works'' unto which we are ''created in Christ Jesus'' (Eph. 2:10), with which believers are to adorn themselves to bring honor to Christ's name here (Mt. 5:16; 1 Tim. 2:10; Ti. 2:8-10; 3:8; 1 Pet. 2:12; 3:3-5; 5:5) and hereafter (Rom. 2:7,10; 1 Cor. 3:12-14, note; Phil.1:10-11; 1 Peter. 1:7; Rev 19:8).
unquote
(New Scofield Reference Edition. footnote for Rev. 19:8, p.1371)
Quote:
Revelation needs to be understood that it's not written as a chroniclogical order of events of the world that starts with chapter 4 ending with chapter 22. It should be read with the understanding that Rev is God view of the history of the world, the attacks by the devil on the church, Jesus' victory, with a sudden end\destruction of the world. Rev 5-6
This theme (Rev 5-6) is repeated multiple times. Throughout Rev, John is seeing the same event only from a different view and descriptions from God's perspective.
In Revelation 20:4 John in his vision sees the souls of the Tribulational martyrs that have been beheaded because of their faith in Christ. In Revelation 19:7 the bride of Christ-the church, is seen in Heaven just prior to the return of Christ to the earth as seen in Revelation 20:11.
I just gave you in my last reply to you a number of passages outside of Revelation that make it plain that there is a thousand year Millennial kingdom.
Last edited by Michael Way; 02-07-2010 at 03:06 AM..
I don't know what you are trying to say here. The Millennium occurs AFTER the Second Advent of Christ...
Twin spin quote " If anyone claims that a literal 1000 year reign occurs (knowing or not) can then predict the return by simple math. It does matter that you may not know the first date, but whatever it is, anybody living could calculate what the second one will be."
Your next paragraph listed below is what is was speaking about: simple math...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
The church is the bride of Christ (literally). The church has a very special relationship with Christ. At the rapture the church is designated as the bride of Christ. And at the judgment seat of Christ the bride has been made ready. When Christ returns at the end of the Tribulation to the earth and the church returns with Him, the wedding supper takes place on the earth..
Date of rapture
+
1000 yrs
=
known date " When Christ returns at the end of the Tribulation to the earth and the church returns with Him"
Purposefully or not, milleniumism predicts the return of Christ.
Twin spin quote " If anyone claims that a literal 1000 year reign occurs (knowing or not) can then predict the return by simple math. It does matter that you may not know the first date, but whatever it is, anybody living could calculate what the second one will be."
Your next paragraph listed below is what is was speaking about: simple math...
Date of rapture
+
1000 yrs
=
known date " When Christ returns at the end of the Tribulation to the earth and the church returns with Him"
Purposefully or not, milleniumism predicts the return of Christ.
Again. The rapture occurs first. Then the Tribulation begins.Then approximately 7 years later, the Second Advent of Christ occurs. Yes, once the rapture occurs the countdown is on. The Tribulation begins and lasts for seven years at the end of which time Christ returns. And THEN the Millennium begins. If I'm understanding you correctly, you seem to think that the Millennium (which you don't think is literal) supposedly begins after the rapture and before the second coming of Christ.
See this link for the meaning of 'of that day and hour no one knows.'
Again. The rapture occurs first. Then the Tribulation begins.Then approximately 7 years later, the Second Advent of Christ occurs. Yes, once the rapture occurs the countdown is on. The Tribulation begins and lasts for seven years at the end of which time Christ returns. And THEN the Millennium begins. If I'm understanding you correctly, you seem to think that the Millennium (which you don't think is literal) supposedly begins after the rapture and before the second coming of Christ.
See this link for the meaning of 'of that day and hour no one knows.'
Mike,
The larger point is no matter how you formulate it, 1000 years, 7 years ect...millennialism is still attempting to predict the return. That is and of itself against scripture. It also goes against the "thief in the night" or the comparison to the unexpectedness of the flood and the worlds end that Jesus made.
There will only be one return of Christ.
“Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.” Hebrews 9:28
The theory that "The rapture occurs first. Then the Tribulation begins.Then approximately 7 years later, the Second Advent of Christ occurs..." is totally a misinterpetation. As it seemed to have gone unnoticed or ignored, Jesus says there is only one return, one judgement....Rev 1:7
There is no secret rapture (being suggested):
"He will come down from heaven with a loud command with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God” (1 Th 4:16)
Jesus himself says
“all who are in the graves will hear his voice and come out - those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned." John 5:28,29
This clear statement leaves no room for the theory of a double resurrection with a millennium separating the first from the second. The same is true of Paul’s testimony before Felix, “There will be a resurrection [singular!] of both the righteous and the wicked” (Ac24:15).
I appreaciate the links you provide, but take it from my view point, all it does is that it proves that there are more than just one entity that misinterpets scripture. Much like when we confront UR's and they link to pro-UR's view point, it's very frustrating.
Last edited by twin.spin; 02-07-2010 at 01:25 PM..
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The same goes for depths of revelation - the fact that we're disagreeing shows that everything is not swallowed at the same rate.
