The Early Church Fathers Did Not Believe In Universal Salvation (Almighty, Commandment)
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And so once again, from Philo, a contemporary of Jesus,
ETers today base their views of aion/ios on people such as the gay pagan philosophers Plato & Aristotle & the AV tradition of the homosexual King James, etc. For their profit or due to their ignorance they totally ignore ECF Greek scholar universalists such as Origen, other scholars, ancient secular writings & tablets, Scriptural usage, etc.
Plato wrote about 500 years before the NT.
Origen was much closer in time to the NT & a NT scholar of Koine Greek.
Plato wrote in classical not Koine NT Greek.
Plato's & his follower Philo's idea of aion/ios as timeless existence appears nowhere in the Greek or Hebrew Scriptures.
Origen repeatedly speaks of an end of all aions, after aionios life & punishment, an end of aion of the aions, an end of aions of the aions ("forever and ever" in the gay KJV), aionios (mistranslated eternal) fire being corrective, etc
I'm quite sure any intelligent reader can see that i've responded to your remarks re both of them & you're failed to comment on many things i've said, while rather preferring to repeat spam the same stuff instead.
Now for something different, here's something from the early church father & universalist Origen.
Here he is commenting on "eternal fire" [literally eonian fire]:
"...God acts in dealing with sinners as a physician...the fury of his anger is profitable for the purging of souls. Even that penalty which is said to be imposed by way of fire is understood as applied to assist a sinner to health... —De Principiis II.x.6
Actually, you are ignoring what I have said, including the fact that you're simply repeating the same tired old arguments which others have presented on this forum in promoting Universalism. You haven't presented anything new. And what I have posted is there for all to see. The posts I have posted since this old thread was revived are Posts # 454, 462, 465, and 471.
And in the very first post on this thread, I posted a number of early church fathers from the second century who believed in eternal punishment.
You've been shown also that Philo, who you tried to use to support your argument also used the word aion to refer to what we call eternity.
First of all, I wonder if you even read what i post. Here it is again:
"Augustine himself, after rejecting apokatastasis, and Basil attest that still late in the fourth and fifth
centuries this doctrine was upheld by the vast majority of Christians (immo quam plurimi)."
So we have your opinion, an amateur, versus that of the scholar i posted above.
Secondly, i will grant you that universalism was probably not the dominant view during the 1000 or so years of dark ages of ignornce, inquisitions, crusades, burning of heretics & their writings.
Thirdly, if you think there is any merit at all in what was the dominant view during those 1000 years of dark ages, then i'd suggest you join the dominant church of that time. It still remains dominant today.
And are all the early church fathers of the second century who believed in eternal punishment also amateurs? Are the scholars who wrote BDAG and cited ancient sources on how Greek words were used also amateurs?
Universalism was NEVER the dominant view in the church at any time, and certainly not in the first and second centuries as Irenaeus made clear. Refer to post # 454.
ETers today base their views of aion/ios on people such as the gay pagan philosophers Plato & Aristotle & the AV tradition of the homosexual King James, etc. For their profit or due to their ignorance they totally ignore ECF Greek scholar universalists such as Origen, other scholars, ancient secular writings & tablets, Scriptural usage, etc.
Plato wrote about 500 years before the NT.
Origen was much closer in time to the NT & a NT scholar of Koine Greek.
Plato wrote in classical not Koine NT Greek.
Plato's & his follower Philo's idea of aion/ios as timeless existence appears nowhere in the Greek or Hebrew Scriptures.
Origen repeatedly speaks of an end of all aions, after aionios life & punishment, an end of aion of the aions, an end of aions of the aions ("forever and ever" in the gay KJV), aionios (mistranslated eternal) fire being corrective, etc
Actually, Plato believed the punishment was only temporary. I quoted Justin Martyr in the first post of this thread with regard to Plato's view.
Justin Martyr (First Apology of Justin, Chap. VIII [150 A.D.]) ''And we say that the same thing will be done, but at the hand of Christ, and upon the wicked in the same bodies united again to their spirits which are now to undergo everlasting punishment, and not only as Plato said, for a period of a thousand years. And if anyone say that this is incredible or impossible, this error of ours is one which concerns ourselves only, and no other person, so long as you cannot convict us of any harm.'' [Bolding mine] (Justin is clear in stating that the punishment is eternal and not for a temporary amount of time.)
And your prejudice against homosexuals is showing. ''gay pagan philosophers Plato & Aristotle'', ''the homosexual King James.'' Their sexual orientation has nothing to do with the issue at hand.
You attempted to use Philo to support your argument, and now you're speaking against him since you were shown that he used the word aion to refer to what we call 'eternity.'
The word aionios and its cognates are in fact used in the Scriptures a great deal to refer to endless duration. And most Greek scholars recognize that fact.
Last edited by Michael Way; 08-14-2016 at 12:16 AM..
And are all the early church fathers of the second century who believed in eternal punishment also amateurs? Are the scholars who wrote BDAG and cited ancient sources on how Greek words were used also amateurs?
Universalism was NEVER the dominant view in the church at any time, and certainly not in the first and second centuries as Irenaeus made clear. Refer to post # 454.
What relevance does your first paaragraph have to this:
"Augustine himself, after rejecting apokatastasis, and Basil attest that still late in the fourth and fifth
centuries this doctrine was upheld by the vast majority of Christians (immo quam plurimi)."
So we have your opinion, an amateur, versus that of the scholar i posted above.
Irrelevant. The subject i was addressing was aion/ios, not punishment. Try to stay on topic.
It's very relevant. You stated that ''ETers today base their views of aion/ios on people such as the gay pagan philosophers Plato & Aristotle & the AV tradition of the homosexual King James, etc.''
But Plato didn't believe the punishment was eternal.
Evidently not from the universalist Alexandrian school of the most learned church fathers.
Someone earlier already remarked on the spurious Second Clement quotes you posted.
I keep telling you that in the first and second centuries the unity of faith in the church included the belief in eternal punishment. It was Irenaeus who stated that. Again, refer to post # 454.
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