Matthew 7:21 Puts the Lie to Universal Reconcilation (believing, Moses, Christ)
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It's bro, bro. 58 years "old" and still learnin'. (I don't suscribe to this "58-years-young" nonsense. I'm feeling every one of those years, believe me).
Good to meet you Thrill, ya got 10 years on me, got to run dinners calling.
You may be right, meerkat. I'm just going by Jesus' promise to get us us a big mansion in His Father's house. (which I have not gotten as of yet, BTW, but, if you're listening, God, I would prefer it to be one of those in the Hamptons)
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
I don't believe that the place being prepared is "in heaven" - the earth is to be prepared - Jesus says to pray to God -
Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Why are we to pray for Gods kingdom to come and Gods will to be done on earth - if the point is for the kingdom to not be on earth but in heaven?
That is a radical departure for me, Phaze. I must think about that, really I will. But I cannot comment on it now.
Were you really beaten and left for dead?
Fair enough, I am not trying to corner you and prove you wrong only to get out where I stand and share it.
As far as being left for dead, It was a long time ago and I was ganged up on by some kids and beaten unconscious when I was in elementary school. It is how I remember the event is all.
In any case, I would love the opportunity to share with them now that God loves them and will reconcile them despite any of it. I have asked God not to hold it against them.
I will not want begin a speculation, but there might exist a realm of bliss, beside the kingdom of heaven, if it would be so, all people could on the one hand be saved while on the other hand some would never enter the kingdom of heaven.
I know there are some verses that seem to contradict universalism but I don't think they do, and I don't believe what I wrote above, it was only a possibility I wanted to show.
I had once this discussion with a former Jehovah Witness, he asked if the chaff is burned (Mt. 3:12), will it ever grow again? - he is right with the symbolism in that verse, when you burn chaff it is forever gone, it implies annihilation in the context if you interpret the chaff as men and not e.g their works, but that doesn't make other verse unwritten like 1Co. 15:15 e.g.
I will not want begin a speculation, but there might exist a realm of bliss, beside the kingdom of heaven, if it would be so, all people could on the one hand be saved while on the other hand some would never enter the kingdom of heaven.
I know there are some verses that seem to contradict universalism but I don't think they do, and I don't believe what I wrote above, it was only a possibility I wanted to show.
I had once this discussion with a former Jehovah Witness, he asked if the chaff is burned (Mt. 3:12), will it ever grow again? - he is right with the symbolism in that verse, when you burn chaff it is forever gone, it implies annihilation in the context if you interpret the chaff as men and not e.g their works, but that doesn't make other verse unwritten like 1Co. 15:15 e.g.
Sven,
When I think about what chaff is it is the outer husk that houses the grain of wheat inside - it seems to me everyone has "chaff" and everyone has "wheat" and the 2 are to be divided in each one of us.
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Heb 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
G5590
ψυχή
psuchē
psoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.
G4983
σῶμα
sōma
so'-mah
From G4982; the body (as a sound whole), used in a very wide application, literally or figuratively: - bodily, body, slave.
G4151
πνεῦμα
pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.
I have pondered long and hard over this doctrine in the last week or so. The scriptural inconsistencies to be found in the Bible between Divine election and universal reconcilation are so numerous as to be impossible to list without the aid of a computer, not to mention the lack of adequate space here. Does this make the Bible totally unreliable--a complete fraud, as the theory goes that one inconsistency in Divine-inspired text subjects the whole to ridicule? Certainly not. The problem, I've decided, lies not in the Word itself, but in the mess man has made of it over the last four, and especially the last two millennia by mangling the original texts so badly that the translations we read today are but a shell--a phantom of what the writers originally penned.
So I decided to discard everything outside the gospels and look only to the words of Jesus. Even then, I fear many of His sayings are not entirely accurate, as certain things He said seem to be in contradiction to one another (if we are to trust the texts).
I boiled it all down to Matt. 7:21, arguably one of the most famous passages in the entire Bible: "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord' shall enter the kingdom of heaven."
Now let us strip away the superflous ..."who says to me, 'Lord, Lord'...." That leaves us with "Not everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven" If Jesus had meant that all would enter heaven He would have said, "Everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven." I think we can we agree on that. But, unfortunately, that nasty "not" gets in the way and ultimately nullifies the whole concept of universal reconcilation. Remember, I've thrown aside every other speaker OT and NT, since their writings, I've determined, are unreliable, not to mention the fact that Jesus' own words certainly would take precedence over anything Paul, Isaiah, or anyone else had to say. So we are left with those unalterable, inescapable, impossible-to-misinterpret eight words:
Not everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven
I cannot get around these eight words in my mind. If someone can reconcile these eight words with universal reconcilation without resorting to Paul, or Isaiah, or any other biblical writers please help me to understand that Jesus, in saying "Not everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven" really meant "Everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven." I would be "eternally' (anion) grateful! (little Bible humor there)
Universal reconcilation is an option that is offered to all mankind. Yet Jesus Christ states that most will reject this offer. And since Jesus understands this, He can make statements like the one found in Matthew 7 verses 14 and 15.
14. Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, (AND MANY THERE BE WHICH GO IN THEREAT
15. Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, (AND FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT.)
The one's who enter the narrow gate, are the one's who have truly been born again. And sad to say, there are numerous people out there who say thay have been, yet are not. And that is why Jesus tells us that many would (worship Him with their lips,) yet their hearts are far from Him.
And that is why Jesus tells us, not everyone who says Lord, Lord, will enter the Kingdom of God.
Salvation out of the lake of fire which is the 2nd death
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
I think ultimately no one has 100% assurance outside of their own belief that they will be. I feel from what you write, Phaze, that you believe 1000% that you are saved. All Christians, more or less, believe this, but only God knows and we won't really find out until judgement day. Remember, "Many will come to Me in that day and say, 'Lord, I truly thought I was saved. I did everything you required.' Then will I profess, 'I never knew you. Depart from Me, you workers of iniquity!" How can anybody be 100% assured with THAT hanging over them!?
It is my understanding that unrepentant "workers of iniquity" will experience the lake of fire which is the second death.
SALVATION OUT OF THE LAKE OF FIRE WHICH IS THE SECOND DEATH
EVERYONE WILL BE SAVED – SOME THROUGH THE FIRE – BUT ALL THROUGH THE BLOOD
Any hell that anyone will experience the Bible calls "kolasis aionian," which means age-during corrective chastisement. Chapter Eleven
According to the Bible everyone will be saved - some through the fire, but all through the blood. The Law of Circularity
We should desire to experience the lake of fire if God sees that is what we need. That's how much we can relax in the arms of God's love.
It is my belief that it is God’s decretive will (that which MUST occur) that everyone violates His preceptive will (that which they OUGHT to do) as much as they actually do because each person is being fitted into God’s master plan in a way that necessitates their own individual experience with sin, evil and suffering. Then when God consummates His plan for the ages of time He will eradicate sin and suffering from existence after everyone has learned all that God wants them to learn from its temporary existence. The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.
The process of salvation will be completed for the firstfruits of election, (the remnant chosen by grace), after the first resurrection. The process of salvation will be completed for the non-elect after the great white throne judgment. For some, it will include an experience in the lake of fire.
But everyone will be saved out of the lake of fire which is the second death.
You may ask, “What scriptural evidence is there of being saved out of the lake of fire which is the second death?"
There actually is much evidence.
Although the book of Revelation is the last book placed in the Bible, it is not the final revelation of what God is going to do with humanity. The apostle Paul saw way beyond John.
Col.1:25 of which I became a dispenser, in accord with the administration of God, which is granted to me for you, to complete the word of God.
There is much evidence that Paul did see way beyond John. For instance, in Revelation there are still kings reigning, and Christ is still reigning along with His followers. There are still sovereignties and powers in force throughout the book of revelation. So John did not see the day when all sovereignty, authority and power would be done away. Paul did.
If you will look at 1Corinthians 15:24-28 Paul saw the day when all of these would be done away. He sees the day when "He should be nullifying all sovereignty, authority and power" (vs.24)
Paul sees the day when Christ will quit reigning (vs.25).
Paul sees the day when death (all death which includes the second death) will be abolished (vs.26). Please remember that death will be abolished **after** all the sovereignties, authorities and powers in Revelation have been nullified. Within the book of Revelation, death is still operational as are the afore mentioned powers.
So what is going to happen to all these people who are in death when death is abolished?
They will come forth vivified (made alive beyond the reach of death) (1Cor.15:22).
They will have their lives justified and will be constituted righteous:
Romans 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying.
Romans 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just.
All will be reconciled to God (Col.1:20)
All will be headed up in Christ (Eph.1:10)
All will bow the knee in the name of Jesus and acclaim with their tongue that "Jesus Christ is Lord" to the glory of God, the Father (Phil.2:9-11).
And we know that anyone who acclaims that Jesus Christ is Lord, especially when it is to God's glory without any hypocrisy is saved for 1Corinthians 12:3 says so.
So there is proof that people will go to the second death **when ** the new earth comes. And there is proof that this is not the final goal God has for these people.
In summary then:
The lake of fire is the second death.
The apostle John did not see into the future as far as the apostle Paul.
How do I know this? and what ramifications does this have as to whether or not one gets out of the lake of fire...the second death? Plenty.
In the book of revelation Christ is still reigning; death is still operational; sovereignties, authorities and powers are still in force.
In 1Cor.15:22-28 Paul sees way beyond John's revelation.
He sees the day when Christ will quit reigning (1Cor.15:25).
He sees the day when all sovereignties, authorities and powers are nullified (1Cor.15:24).
He sees the day when death is abolished (1Cor.15:26) and all are then subjected to Christ then Christ is subjected to God and then God is All in all (1Cor.15:28).
So, yes, there is scripture which intimates that all in the lake of fire will come forth and God will be All in all.
Also in 1Cor.15:22 all are dying and in Christ shall all be vivified. So this happens after death for most.
Also in Romans 5:18,19 you have what happens to all mankind due to what Adam did which happens to the exact same all mankind due to what Christ did. But it does not happen to all at the exact same time.
Each in his own order.
Where is a resurrection from the lake of fire which is the second death taught in the scriptures?
The lake of fire is distinctly defined as the second death Rev.20:14; 21:8. In it is cast all that is still at enmity with God. So that, death is indeed the last enemy (1 Cor.15:26).
And we are just as decidedly told that Christ is the one who abolishes death and brings life and incorruptibility to light (2 Tim.1:10). The reading "hath abolished" is not true as to fact or as to grammar. It is in the indefinite form (commonly called the aorist tense) simply recording the fact apart from time. Death has not been abolished yet.
How and when it will be abolished is told us in the fifteenth of first Corinthians. It is to be abolished by means of universal vivification (1 Cor.15:22). This takes place at the consummation (1 Cor.15:26).
It is useless to look for plain statements on this subject in parts of the Scriptures whose scope is limited to eonian truth, such as the Revelation. It is unwise to look for it anywhere but in the special portion which deals with this topic. Death and resurrection are exhaustively treated in the, fifteen chapter of first Corinthians and there it is we should look for clear statements as to the ultimate goal. There we are distinctly told that the last enemy that shall be abolished is death (which must refer to the lake of fire, for the first death cannot be the last enemy). And there we are told that it is to be done by a universal vivification rather than resurrection.
The term "resurrection" is applied to those who have afterward died again, such as those who suffer the second death. Hence there is not a resurrection, merely, from the lake of fire, but a vivification beyond which there can be no death.
What do you suppose the lake that burns with fire and brimstone will do? It will burn off of mankind the stubborn will which is contrary to the Lord’s will. It will take that which the Lord subjected man to, death, and will burn its bonds off. The flames of fire will lick the lashes of cords that have bound men in rebellion and will dispose of those cords as one would burn refuse in a hot scorching fire. It is the rebellious will, maintained by ignorance that is burned. The same standard of burning happens to the Overcomer. They are baptized in the very same fire. The fire that constitutes the lake that burns with fire and brimstone and the fire upon the brow of the Overcomer are the very same kind of fire. In both cases, whether it be the Overcomer or the unrepentant sinner, the cords of ignorance as to the will of the Lord are burned off. Such is the ordination in fire, no one will escape it who needs it.
Universal reconcilation is an option that is offered to all mankind. Yet Jesus Christ states that most will reject this offer. And since Jesus understands this, He can make statements like the one found in Matthew 7 verses 14 and 15.
14. Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, (AND MANY THERE BE WHICH GO IN THEREAT
15. Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, (AND FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT.)
The one's who enter the narrow gate, are the one's who have truly been born again. And sad to say, there are numerous people out there who say thay have been, yet are not. And that is why Jesus tells us that many would (worship Him with their lips,) yet their hearts are far from Him.
And that is why Jesus tells us, not everyone who says Lord, Lord, will enter the Kingdom of God.
Re Matt 7:13-14. The verse mentioned here is also repeated in a manner over in Luke13 (Young's Literal Translation) 23 and a certain one said to him, `Sir, are those saved few?' and he said unto them, Be striving to go in through the straight gate, because many, I say to you, will seek to go in, and shall not be able;
from the time the master of the house may have risen up, and may have shut the door, and ye may begin without to stand, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, lord, open to us, and he answering shall say to you, I have not known you whence ye are, then ye may begin to say, We did eat before thee, and did drink, and in our broad places thou didst teach; and he shall say, I say to you, I have not known you whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of the unrighteousness.
Here is how I see it.
The disciples were asking Jesus about the present time mode of salvation (via the laws) and how many were being saved. Jesus' answer was in regards to leaving the constrictive nature of the law which was impossible to follow and follow instead His way to Heaven. He is talking about how difficult it is to gain the Kingdom by keeping the laws and that few are able to do it. Rather, most people were following the path of sin and corruption in their conduct to God and their neighbors.
The "broad ways" refers to the spacious course of conduct that they were taking and they even acknowledge that they sat and were nourished by God's word and accepted His teachings into their "broad ways". Yet they were unable to gain passage into Heaven in this manner.
Even "leading to" in this passage is a term of past action, pointing to the former path of the law.
So IMO as a Christian Universalist, I see these 2 passages encouraging folks to leave behind the law (Torah) that is impossible to keep and will not gain you entrance into God's presence and to take up the way of Jesus. His Laws (love God, love your neighbor) are a much narrower path and leads, through faith in His Son, directly to Heaven's gate.
Just because they don't find salvation through the Torah at that time doesn't mean that they never will find salvation.
And that is why Jesus tells us, not everyone who says Lord, Lord, will enter the Kingdom of God.
Long drawn out essays are then needed to clear up why the following is then not a contradiction to that conclusion.
Phl 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;
Phl 2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
The narrow and straight gate issue is about which means people will take to get there.
To the glory of the father, then will require all kind of convoluted nonsense to determine why it is to the glory of the father as he stands there hearing them confess at their realization of doom.
Well, if it weren't for the people in spiritual bondage believing that mess, it would be funny.
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(which I have not gotten as of yet, BTW, but, if you're listening, God, I would prefer it to be one of those in the Hamptons) 
Salvation out of the lake of fire which is the 2nd death
