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Well, I don’t know.. how do I? I find as I follow the above thinking...I don’t think we’ll have a problem “being all things to all people” without compromising our beliefs.
Anything subversive in a relationship won't stay that way very long. Genuine love and concern isn't subversive. "Get one to believe" isn't really the point.. someone who...wants to share this love with others, and live a life that glorifies and points to God. It's natural, and not subversive... an out-pouring of what has been shown to us.
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Originally Posted by GCSTroop
how (do) you try to reach someone who does not buy into the emotional appeal of 'wish-thinking'
How do you even make the first step in trying to get someone to not only believe...but also take such a great leap of faith onto the specific Christian God?
And how does one do that with genuine, fortuitous honesty and altruism without compromising who they are as well as who I am - in essence - without crossing boundaries?
"The best laid scheme of Mice and Men
oft go awry,
And leave us nothing but grief and pain,
for promised joy!"
Why did Lenny ultimately kill the little mouse? Because he honestly didn't know how to love it. He tried to possess it. Love isn't narcissistic. It's not subversive.
Why did Lenny ultimately kill the little mouse? Because he honestly didn't know how to love it. He tried to possess it. Love isn't narcissistic. It's not subversive.
Hey there, cg81. You were one of the people I was hoping to hear from.
Consider the feeling mutual. I enjoy seeing your point of view as well!
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Yet, to narrow the spectrum and wavelength down to how a believer interacts with someone such as myself is what I am curious about. Because then we are talking about making an approach, walking my walk, talking my talk, etc... in order to get me to believe. So, here we stand, you and I in my living room after we've just high-fived one another after watching our favorite sports team win a ball game and you feel it's time to bring up the subject. Kind of like "the talk" a father and son have.
Well, first of all I'm trying to imagine a situation where it would work this way.. it would definitely not be the norm, for me at least. To explain, I try to live by this: "Preach the gospel all the time, use words if necessary." So in order for me to "feel like it's time to bring up the subject" really, it would have to have been "brought up" long ago, just not in words. You would already know where I was coming from. And to tell you the truth, I rarely would be the first to bring up the subject (in speech). Thinking of situations where I have, its been where I feel that I understand where the other person is coming from.. in other words, have "become a _____ ." and so I feel empathetic or "one" with the other person. (I'm talking about a "friendship" situation like you mentioned.. it's not always possible to get to know a person, and sometimes we need to go out on a limb. But even then, it must be with a proper view of the other person.. or maybe rather, a proper view of ourself.)
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So, how do you, after attaining my trust and friendship, go about doing that without compromising who you are? If you are to approach me and tell me about a reality that is completely and utterly beyond what I deem rational, regardless of how you've "become a Troop, talked to the Troop, and befriended the Troop" it doesn't make your beliefs any more tangible to me.
In order to do that, one would, I think, have to sort of lose their faith in totality and then bring me along with them for the ride back to believing. This, I don't see as really being possible for a believer to do and it seems to me that you would compromise exactly what it was Paul was saying not to compromise in order to do so.
I think I answered some of this above.. and I also think you're making it a little to complicated. Like I mentioned, in order for me to bring something like this up in a friendship relationship, I would already feel that I knew where you were coming from. And I'd like to go back to the thought of all of us being basically the same. Really, I believe there is a little atheist in all of us. I wasn't born with a "God" gene! I'm a born skeptic, a questioner.. I don't blindly follow something just for the sake of following it: I like to figure things out. I've questioned the idea of God. But He has proved Himself to me.. and this is where I would come from.
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To continue on with my last sentence and being a good "yoking" relationship, this is how you win people over and win acceptance. The way I see it, and this is my personal opinion, Christianity has brought itself a lot of undue attention because of the approach they have taken with people.
Without trying to empathize and understand, without trying to essentially take Paul's advice, they have ostracized themselves from being a once widely revered and admired religion to one that is torn asunder from very many scandals and often poked and prodded at with sometimes extreme criticism and that criticism has not always come unwarranted, in my opinion.
Essentially, to re-focus on our analogy of the Iraqis finally, on a superficial premise, accepting Americans in their country, we had to shift the perception of ourselves as "invaders and conquerors" to empathizers, liberators, and friends. Now, at first, we were not genuine and we were not sincere with that despite what we were being told by everyone in the media.
The same can be said for the way Christians approach people. To approach not as conquerors or invaders but to approach as empathizers, perhaps even as liberators and friends, may not change convictions, souls (if one believes they exist), or beliefs but it may enable that idea, that spread of Christianity to not have IED's planted along the roadside every few meters. That, I think, is what I am essentially trying to get at.
You may never be able to win me over. You may never be able to make an Iraqi citizen a full-blown American (I know... Legally you could but you catch my drift) but that doesn't mean we can't empathize and be friends.
I think that this would provide a moratorium for sanctity and fellowship even through mutual disagreement in order for us to have a peaceful cohabitation and environment.
Therefore, I do find Paul's advice to be good words of wisdom for any basic human relation - as long as it is not done with subversive intent to sway other people. I am usually very quick to pick up on that sort of thing and nothing will infuriate me faster than to approach me as a friend with the ulterior conviction and motivation to make me believe - because that's not what friends do, that's not what Americans should do in Iraq, and that's not the way the world works.
Very good insightful points!
I'm not here to convince you.. only God can do that. And in order for Him to work through me, I need to realize that I am no better than anyone else, and also give up my control (and desire to control another) but at the same time, as His servant, I sometimes need to step out of the comfort zone. I like your thought of "liberators and friends" vs. "conquerors and invaders"!
I don't think Paul is instructing us to get hooked on meth so we can witness to a meth addict. Or start turning tricks so we can witness to prostitutes.
What he is teaching us is that we have to have some level of relational level with other folks if we're going to 'earn' the right to speak into their lives.
There's a concept out there regarding this as it applies to missionaries. Actually, a free book on it from Gospel For Asia called Revolution in World Missions. Basically that the message of the gospel is meant to be brought on the lips and lives of those around you.....your friends, family, and co-workers. How can a person in the Sudan relate to the 'rich', white missionaries with guards and servants living in town? Will Christianity bring them wealth? Big houses? etc? No! But it will bring them life! So the goal is build native missionaries that can meet the people at their own level.
Your taking a concept and trying to apply it too far. Do you think Paul wanted Christians to completely take on the look and actions of those they are trying to reach? Would I have to work your job, sleep in your bed with your wife and adapt your routine? No. I'm just instructed to be approachable. To be sincere. To be a real person with the only motive to reflect Christ. That might mean a difficult conversation at some point, but when it gets to that point our relationship should be to a point to handle it.
I wonder if there's much of anything that a group of combat seasoned vets wouldn't discuss with each other. I think that's the point.
I don't think Paul is instructing us to get hooked on meth so we can witness to a meth addict. Or start turning tricks so we can witness to prostitutes.
What he is teaching us is that we have to have some level of relational level with other folks if we're going to 'earn' the right to speak into their lives.
There's a concept out there regarding this as it applies to missionaries. Actually, a free book on it from Gospel For Asia called Revolution in World Missions. Basically that the message of the gospel is meant to be brought on the lips and lives of those around you.....your friends, family, and co-workers. How can a person in the Sudan relate to the 'rich', white missionaries with guards and servants living in town? Will Christianity bring them wealth? Big houses? etc? No! But it will bring them life! So the goal is build native missionaries that can meet the people at their own level.
Your taking a concept and trying to apply it too far. Do you think Paul wanted Christians to completely take on the look and actions of those they are trying to reach? Would I have to work your job, sleep in your bed with your wife and adapt your routine? No. I'm just instructed to be approachable. To be sincere. To be a real person with the only motive to reflect Christ. That might mean a difficult conversation at some point, but when it gets to that point our relationship should be to a point to handle it.
I wonder if there's much of anything that a group of combat seasoned vets wouldn't discuss with each other. I think that's the point.
Got It! Crystal Clear! Now, if only someone would have mentioned it in the way "Troop" can understand such as becoming a meth head to preach to meth heads or a prostitute to preach to prostitute (sadly my income may wane considerably at that point) as I do really well with analogies such as that. Great answer! Now, if this darn system will allow me to rep you I will.
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and adapt your routine? No. I'm just instructed to be approachable. To be sincere. To be a real person with the only motive to reflect Christ. That might mean a difficult conversation at some point, but when it gets to that point our relationship should be to a point to handle it.
