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Then they will go away into kolasis aionios (age-during corrective chastisement) but the righteous to life eonian. When God's plan for the ages has been completed, both kolasis aionios and life eonian will come to an end with everyone saved. Then eternity will continue.
Everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.
Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."
Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46
Concordant Literal, Young’s literal, Wilson’s Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham’s Emphasized, Scarlett’s, J.W. Hanson’s New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth’s (unedited), Clementson’s, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger’s Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell’s translation (2010).
Regarding the meaning of aionios Dean Hough wrote “The definition given in THE VOCABULARY OF THE GREEK TESTAMENT (edited by James Hope Moulton and George Milligan) is helpful. Concerning aionios we read, “In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view . . .” (p.16). If the horizon of the extermination spoken of by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is simply not in view, then we can see that what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:22 can truly occur. The same all who are dying in Adam, which includes some who incur eonian extermination, can indeed eventually be vivified in Christ. The Bible, in fact, does not speak of judgment and condemnation, death and destruction, hades and Gehenna, or any of these serious consequences of sin, as unending. It may refer to them as not having the end in view, but none of these fearful works of God can keep Him from achieving His will (1Tim.2:4); reconciling all through the blood of Christ’s cross (Col.1:20, and becoming All in all (1 Cor.15:28).” Dean Hough
They are liars .... Jesus is not.
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious
throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from
another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right
and the goats on his left.
Jesus says "those" .... not "all will"
“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
I have news for you twin.
You are a GOAT.
You are also a sheep, my friend.
As we ALL are.
As in Adam, ALL die.
So in Christ, shall ALL live.
peace,
sparrow
False news is no news.
And since Jesus said it will happen to those who reject the truth ... those who claim otherwise are " everyone who loves and practices falsehood."
False news is no news.
And since Jesus said it will happen to those who reject the truth ... those who claim otherwise are " everyone who loves and practices falsehood."
Yup. The goat in us who rejects the truth of God's true character, His true love, True Mercy... that goat in us will be destroyed, Twin. The goat who casts aside mercy, compassion, love (what Christ taught) and meditates and ponders instead on wrath and condemnation and punishment. The goat who is everything that love is NOT. The goat within EACH AND EVERY ONE of us whose feet walk on that wide path (non-love) is being destroyed. Look into your neighbor's eyes, and see yourself. Look into your neighbors eyes, Twin. And see the goat and the sheep within, that is also within you. Look into the eyes of those whom you condemn and you will see yourself. Will you start to finally see the power of God's love then...? One can only hope.
You are loved beyond measure, Twin.
And so are the rest of your neighbors in this world.
Each and every one.
peace to ya..
sparrow
I trust that Jesus knew what he was talking when called those who hated the truth "dogs" ... and they are outside.
“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and
may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood."
They you go again, accusing those who disagree with you of being "those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood" When will you stop accusing the brethren,Twin . . . it is a dangerous practice.
Quote:
I trust that Jesus knew what he was talking when called those who hated the truth "goats" and they are cursed.
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.' "
Now you know this had NOTHING to do with what they BELIEVED as you imply, Twin. It was what they did or did not DO. Why do you falsely accuse the brethren?
Quote:
I trust that Jesus knew what he was talking when warned about rejecting him as the truth
"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
And since Jesus said it will happen to those who reject the truth ... those who claim otherwise are " everyone who loves and practices falsehood."
You know that those you are accusing here do NOT reject Christ and this has nothing to do with their disagreement with YOU. YOU do not hold a patent on the truth . . . so to disagree with YOU does not mean they reject the TRUTH or Christ. They just reject YOUR interpretation. Since they sincerely believe what they are saying, Twin . . . it is NOT lying or practicing falsehood. Speaking the truth AS THEY KNOW IT IS NOT LYING.
Last edited by MysticPhD; 04-30-2013 at 11:14 PM..
Yup. The goat in us who rejects the truth of God's true character, His true love, True Mercy... that goat in us will be destroyed, Twin. The goat who casts aside mercy, compassion, love (what Christ taught) and meditates and ponders instead on wrath and condemnation and punishment. The goat who is everything that love is NOT. The goat within EACH AND EVERY ONE of us whose feet walk on that wide path (non-love) is being destroyed. Look into your neighbor's eyes, and see yourself. Look into your neighbors eyes, Twin. And see the goat and the sheep within, that is also within you. Look into the eyes of those whom you condemn and you will see yourself. Will you start to finally see the power of God's love then...? One can only hope.
You are loved beyond measure, Twin.
And so are the rest of your neighbors in this world.
Each and every one.
peace to ya..
sparrow
Or, as Tony puts it in
SOONER OR LATER GOD ALL IN ALL - Anthony J. Borrello “As hostile and objectionable our dear brethren may be, there are answers and explanations for every argument and/or insinuation presented against the undeniable fact, That God indeed is a God ‘Who will have all men to be saved, and come into a knowledge of the truth (1Tim. 2:4). As greatly as man and their religious attempt to fight this utterly dynamic evangel (good news), God shall eventually be All in all (1Cor. 15:28)." "But God is in no hurry. He has specific eons, and administrations within the eons, to fulfill His universal purpose and intention of universal reconciliation. All came out of Christ, including Adam. Consequently all shall be restored by and through Christ, ‘yet each in his own class’ (1Cor. 15:23)." When clouds of confusion gather regarding God’s plan for mankind, and despair come showering down upon our studies, turn to God’s word originally rendered, then, like a searchlight in the darkness of night, His love, and His light of understanding will surely beam forth. God will not allow any to be eternally lost. He is a loving Creator, working out His purpose for the universe, Who will get love from all in return, so that He can and will be ‘ALL in all,’ to all, ‘later.’”
They you go again, accusing those who disagree with you of being "those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood" When will you stop accusing the brethren,Twin . . . it is a dangerous practice. Now you know this had NOTHING to do with what they BELIEVED as you imply, Twin. It was what they did or did not DO. Why do you falsely accuse the brethren? You know that those you are accusing here do NOT reject Christ and this has nothing to do with their disagreement with YOU. YOU do not hold a patent on the truth . . . so to disagree with YOU does not mean they reject the TRUTH or Christ. They just reject YOUR interpretation. Since they sincerely believe what they are saying, Twin . . . it is NOT lying or practicing falsehood. Speaking the truth AS THEY KNOW IT IS NOT LYING.
From THE OUTCOME OF INFINITE GRACE – DR. LOYAL F. HURLEY
“Only as one sees God’s Plan of the Ages do they see the beauty of God’s Program for the redemption of the race.
Heb. 11:3 should read, “Through faith we understand that the ages were planned by the Word of God.” The ages will collectively end. A literal translation of Heb. 9:26 is, ‘But now, once for all, with a view to the end of the ages, has He been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.’
Throughout the eons there is sin and evil, condemnation and death. At the end of the eons all will be justified (Rom. 5:18,19), and all will be reconciled through Christ’s blood (Col. 1:20). GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.
I love it when people pull out Greek. "eternal" means "temporal." "punishment" means "correction." It's almost as if you could make the Bible say and mean anything you want to fit your particular flavor of god. Oh wait...
Universalists and infernalists are on par in this matter, since infernalists say that death does not mean death but a miserable everlasting life and that destruction does not mean destruction but to exist everlastingly in a miserable state
This is not what death and destruction are commonly ought to mean, you also go to the Greek in your attempts to proof that to destroy does not mean to extinct but to render useless or something like that. This is the very same as you accuse universalists of.
There is a verse in the koran that states that Christians and Jews believe that future punishment is only for a few days and that they are in error therein, does anybody knows where the koran says so, which sura it is?
PS: I seem to have found it, 3:24
"That is because they say, "Never will the Fire touch us except for [a few] numbered days," and [because] they were deluded in their religion by what they were inventing."
I remembered it differently.
That's interesting. The quran was written between 610-632AD. Meaning that around that time (a large part of) the Christians and Jews believed in limited punishment.
The majority of Jews is still doing so to up to today irrc.
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."
βάσανος, βασανίζω, βασανισμός, βασανιστής
1. The βάσανος originally belongs to the calling of the inspector of coins. It is linked with the Heb. root בחן (“to test”) and the Egyptian bḫn; (“basalt”). According to K. Sethe.1 bhn is the word which underlies the Heb. בחן2 and the Gk. βάσανος. βάσανος is generally accepted to be a loan word. βασανίτης is most closely related to it. Βασανίτου λίθου ὄρος is the mountain of the bḫn stone. R. Herzog3 thinks that he may deduce from the etymological development that the ars spectandi, the testing of gold and silver as media of exchange by the proving stone, was first developed by the Babylonians,4 then came to the Aramaeans and Hebrews by way of Lydia (Λυδίαλίθος [Bacchyl. Fr., 14, 1, Blass]; βάσανος, Bacchyl., 8, 58), and from them to the Gks. In non-biblical Gk. βάσανος is a commercial expression, or is used in relation to government. It then acquires the meaning of the checking of calculations, which develops naturally out of the basic sense of βάσανος, βασανίζειν (P. Oxy., 58, 25 [288 a.d.]). In the spiritual sphere it has the figur., sense, which is closely related to the original concrete meaning, of a means of testing (Anth. Pal., VII, 54: ἀνδρῶν κρινομένων ἐν βασάνῳ σοφίης).
The word then undergoes a change in meaning. The original sense fades into the background. βάσανος now comes to denote “torture” or “the rack,” espec. used with slaves (P. Lille, I, 29, 22; Ditt. Syll.3, 356, 12). βάσανος occurs in the sense of “torment” in Theocr. Idyll., 13, p. 13, 5, Meineke; Thom. Mag., p. 94, 4, Ritschl; Demetr. Eloc., 201, 4. An inscription from Cyprus (Salamis), BCH, 51 (1927), 148, 18, contains the malediction: ἐν βασάνοις ἀπόλοιτο. Vet. Val., IV, 13, p. 182, 19, Kroll has a reference to torments of soul (ψυχικὰς βασάνους).5
The change in meaning is best explained if we begin with the object of treatment. If we put men instead of metal or a coin, the stone of testing become torture or the rack. The metal which has survived the testing stone is subjected to harsher treatment. Man is in the same position when severely tested by torture. In the testing of metal an essential role was played by the thought of testing and proving genuineness. The rack is a means of showing the true state of affairs. In its proper sense it is a means of testing and proving,6 though also of punishment. Finally, even this special meaning was weakened and only the general element of torment remained.
2. In the LXX7 the word βάσανος and deriv. are seldom found except in the originally Gk. books, or those preserved only in Gk. A corresponding basis in the Heb. is lacking in almost every case. The word group is most common in 4 Macc. With βάσανος and βασανίζειν we here find βασανισμός, βασανιστήριον (tormentum) and προβασανίζειν. In general two groups of meaning may be discerned: a. testing afflictions which the righteous have to suffer in the world at the hands of the ungodly; and b. judicial sufferings which by reason of his conduct the ungodly will receive from the righteous in time and eternity. The martyrdom which the righteous have to suffer can consist in spiritual or physical torments (Wis. 2:19). In a few passages (e.g., Wis. 3:1) βάσανος is to be understood eschatologically. In Ez. 12:18, where we have βάσανος with ὀδύνη and θλῖψις, it has the meaning of eschatological affliction. In Ez. 32:24, 30 βάσανος refers to future torments. In Ez. 3:20; 7:19 (Heb. מִבְשׁוֹל), the LXX has altered the original meaning of the text; βάσανος is suffering in the sense of punishment. There is a similar alteration in 1 Βασ*. 6:3, 4, 8, 17, where the Heb. has אָשָׁם and refers to guilt to be stoned, whereas the LXX speaks of trouble for which payment must be made. The same is probably true in Ez. 16:52, 54; 32:24, 30 (Heb. בְּלִמָּה), where instead of shame or disgrace the LXX has affliction in the sense of punishment. The reference in Sir. 30:35 (33:27) is to the punishment of a wicked slave. Here στρέβλη (στρέβλαι καὶ βάσανοι) is par. to βάσανος. In one passage (Wis. 2:19) βάσανος is par. to ὕβρις (mockery).
With βασανίζειν we sometimes have the basic meaning of testing genuineness, as in Sir. 4:7. The predominant meaning, however, is “to torment” or “to torture.” In Wis. 11:9 (10) βασανίζειν and πειράζειν are set in juxtaposition.
Of the other translators Ἀ in Qoh. 1:18 and 2:23 has βάσανος8 for מַבְאוֹב, whereas the LXX uses ἄλγημα. In Ἰερ. 20:2 Σ according to Jerome has βασανιστήριον sive στρεβλωτήριον, which in the LXX is found only in 4 Macc.; the LXX and Θ here have καταράκτης. At Prv. 10:8 (LXX: ὑποσκελίζειν) Σ has βασανίζειν, obviously in the sense of punishing with plagues; cf. Ἀ: δέρω (δαρήσεται); the (יִלָּבֵט) לָבַט of the Heb., however, means to bring to pass. Θ at 1 Βασ*. 15:33 has ἐβασάνισεν in the sense of penal torments (Ἀ Σ: διέσπασεν, LXX: ἔσφαξε, Heb. שָׁסַף).
3. βάσανος occurs in the NT only in Mt. and Lk. At Mt. 4:24 νόσοι and βάσανοι are co-ordinated.9 At Lk. 16:23, 28 the plur. βάσανοι refers to the torments of hell.10 Hell is called ὁ τόπος τῆς βασάνου.
βασανίζειν means strictly “to test by the proving stone” (βάσανος), i.e., “to rub against it,” “to test the genuineness of,” “to examine or try,” then “to apply means of torture to find the truth,” “to harry or torture” in a hearing or before a tribunal.11 In the NT it is found only in the general sense of “to plague” or “to torment.” The centurion’s servant lying sick of a palsy is grievously tormented (Mt. 8:6).12 To those possessed with demons encounter with Jesus is a tormenting experience (Mt. 8:29; Mk. 5:7; Lk. 8:28). At Rev. 12:2 βασανίζειν, like βάσανος in Anth. Pal., IX, 311, is used of the pains of labour.13 At 2 Pt. 2:8 there is reference to the inner torment of soul at the sight of the acts of the ungodly; Lot suffers as he sees the licentiousness of the inhabitants of Sodom.14 This is the only passage in the NT in which βασανίζειν is connected with the suffering of the righteous. In Rev. βασανίζειν is used of the torments of the last time. At Mt. 14:24; Mk. 6:48 it is used to depict the serious situation of the disciples on the lake; their boat is hard pressed by the waves.15 The suggestion that βασανίζεσθαι denotes the torture of the disciples rowing16 is artificial. In both passages it must be taken passively.17
βασανισμός occurs only in Rev. In 9:5 it is used actively of the torment which will come on men as the first woe after the fifth trumpet. In 18:7ff., however, it is used passively and denotes the suffering of Babylon when deprived of its power. This torment strikes the once powerful city in retribution for its wicked conduct.
βασανιστής does not occur in the NT in the original sense of a “tester” but it is found once in Mt. 18:34 in the sense of a “tormentor.”18
Schneider
Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, ed. Gerhard Kittel, Geoffrey W. Bromiley, Gerhard Friedrich et al., electronic ed., 1:561-563 (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1964)
It's debated when the NT was finished but all scholars agree it was long before 288AD. So in Jesus' time it had one meaning "pruning".
And that aligns perfectly with all sorts of other symbology.
God is a fuller's soap --> cleans
God is a refiner --> removes the dross from gold and silver --> cleans
Pruning --> Removing of the bad parts
Approve --> Again quality check of metal/coins
Brimstone --> A very widely use cleaning and purifying agent in ancient times.
Salted with fire --> Again a purifying material. Sacrifices and newborns presented to God were rubbed with salt.
The list continues.....
If you do something wrong and your parents spank you that's okay. But if they killed you would say "we'll that's a bit much" . If you did petty thief and a judge sent you to the electric chair you would think we'll that's a bit much" . So a god who created you as a sinful being(if angels couldn't stop from sinning how he thought humans would do better i don't know), set up impossible rules you, never appears and then want to punish you infinitely for only a finite amount of years lived most would think "we'll that's a bit much" .
Good point! The punishment should fit the crime. How severe and heinous is a crime committed against the holiness of God?
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I love it when people pull out Greek. "eternal" means "temporal." "punishment" means "correction." It's almost as if you could make the Bible say and mean anything you want to fit your particular flavor of god. Oh wait...
