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How many times have your heard someone say Jesus is God, Jesus is God's Son, Jesus is the 2nd person of the trinity, Jesus is Michael the arch angel, Jesus is Lucifer's spiritual brother, Jesus was a prophet, Jesus was a ghost or a phantom, who really didn't exist as a human, or Jesus was not an actual historical figure but some made up person, who's a figment of Christians' imagination?
My intent in starting this thread is to ask, WILL THE REAL JESUS OF THE BIBLE PLEASE Stand up. I am looking for healthy dialogue, using scriptural references that prove without a shadow of a doubt who Jesus of the bible really is. We can start with these basic 3 questions, and I want to learn from anyone who can give me scriptural references to prove their positions with the Holy Spirit's help I hope. Amen!!!!!!!!!
Is Jesus a created Being? If so prove it using Scripture.
Is Jesus Michael the Arch Angel? If so prove it using Scripture.
Is Jesus God or God the Son? If so prove it using Scripture.
Is Jesus a created Being? If so prove it using Scripture.
Is Jesus Michael the Arch Angel? If so prove it using Scripture.
Is Jesus God or God the Son? If so prove it using Scripture.
This one Scripture hits all three of your questions. I have added clarifications to the pronouns to clarify the context.
Heb. 1:1-13 (NASB, CAPS are OT references, parenthesis is mine)
1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He (God the Father) appointed heir of all things, through whom also He (the Father) made the world.
3 And He (The Son) is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His (the Father's) nature, and upholds all things by the word of His (the Son's) power. When He (the Son) had made purification of sins, He (Son) sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high (Father),
4 having become as much better than the angels, as He (Son) has inherited a more excellent name than they.
5 For to which of the angels did He (Father) ever say, "YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU"? And again, "I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME"?
6 And when He (Father) again brings the firstborn into the world, He (Father) says, "AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM (Son)."
7 And of the angels He (Father) says, "WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE."
8 But of the Son He (Father) says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD (Son), IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
9 "YOU (Son) HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD (Father), YOUR GOD (the son's God - which is the Father), HAS ANOINTED YOU (Son) WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS."
10 And, "YOU, LORD (Son), IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU (Son) REMAIN; AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP; LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED. BUT YOU (Son) ARE THE SAME, AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END."
13 But to which of the angels has He (Father) ever said, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET"?
Created being? Verse 5. Use of the word today means at some point in time, the Son was begotten by the Father. Also called firstborn in verse 6.
Jesus an arch angel? No. Verse4 - He is better than angels. Verse 13 - The Father talked to the Son in terms never used for any angels.
Jesus is the Son of God AND God (or part of the Godhead). The use of the terms "Father" and "Son" points to the fact that He is the Son of God. In verse 8, the Father calls the Son "God". If the Father calls Him God, then He is God.
How many times have your heard someone say Jesus is God, Jesus is God's Son, Jesus is the 2nd person of the trinity, Jesus is Michael the arch angel, Jesus is Lucifer's spiritual brother, Jesus was a prophet, Jesus was a ghost or a phantom, who really didn't exist as a human, or Jesus was not an actual historical figure but some made up person, who's a figment of Christians' imagination?
My intent in starting this thread is to ask, WILL THE REAL JESUS OF THE BIBLE PLEASE Stand up. I am looking for healthy dialogue, using scriptural references that prove without a shadow of a doubt who Jesus of the bible really is. We can start with these basic 3 questions, and I want to learn from anyone who can give me scriptural references to prove their positions with the Holy Spirit's help I hope. Amen!!!!!!!!!
Quote:
Is Jesus a created Being? If so prove it using Scripture.
No.
Quote:
Is Jesus Michael the Arch Angel? If so prove it using Scripture.
No.
Quote:
Is Jesus God or God the Son? If so prove it using Scripture.
He is both. Jesus Christ is eternal and infinite God, the Second Person of the Godhead. He is co-equal and co-eternal with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. As God He is of the same essence, nature, or substance as God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.
Hebrews 1:3 'And He (Jesus Christ) is the radiance of His (the Father's) glory and the exact representation of His nature (hupostasis - substance, essence) and upholds all things by the word of His (Jesus') power.
The word 'hupostasis' is where we get the word 'hypostatic union'. Hupostasis means substance, nature, essence. As God, Jesus Christ has always existed. Since the time of His incarnation some two thousand years ago, He has been and will forevermore be the God-Man. This is the Hypostatic union of Jesus Christ - In the Person of Jesus Christ are two natures inseparably united without mixture or loss of separate identity, without loss or transfer of properties or attributes, the unity being personal and eternal (John 1:1,14; Phil 2:5-11, Rom 1:2-5; 1 Tim 3:16; Heb 2:9,14,16-17).
John 1:1 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God....14] And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory as of the only begotten (uniquely born - reference to the virgin birth of the humanity of Jesus Christ.) from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Phil 2:5 'Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6] who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7] but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8] And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9] Therefore also God (the Father) highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10] that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, 11] and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
1 Tim 3:16 'And by common confession great is the mystery of godliness; He (Jesus Christ) who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Beheld by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.
Hebrews 2:9 'But we do see Him who has been made for a little while lower than the angels, Namely Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone....14] Since then the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15] and might deliver those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. 16] For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. 17] Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
Those passages show that Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the triune Godhead became a man.
And to head off any objections by those who would argue with the meaning of those passages, and accuse me of not exegeting them, it is not my intention to go into that much detail as it is too time consuming. These passages have been exegeted by theologians already.
Jesus Christ Himself is the actual agent of creation. He by His own creative power, His own omnipotence, created the universe and upholds it.
John 1:3 'All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
Colossians 1:16 For by Him (Jesus Christ) all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.'
Hebrews 1:3 'And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.
Only God can create all that has been created, and only God can uphold and sustain the universe.
When Jesus Christ called Himself the Son of God, the Jews of His day, including His enemies, understood Him to be saying, ''I am God.''
John 5:18 'For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
John 10:33 'The Jews answered Him, ''For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.''...36] do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?
A QUESTION to those who deny that Jesus Christ is God!!! Since the Jews of His day understood that when Jesus referred to Himself as 'The Son of God' He was saying that He is God, how is it that you do not understand that?
There is so very much more in the Scriptures which declare that Jesus Christ is God. Not a god, but THE GOD, Second Person of the Godhead and yet equal in essence with the Father. There never was a time when He did not exist, and He is the revealed Person of the Godhead.
During His First Advent, when Jesus said things such as 'the Father is greater than I', He was speaking from the standpoint of His humanity and kenosis in which He voluntarily refrained from using His deity independently of the Father's plan, for His own benefit (Matt 4:3-4 for example). In order to provide salvation for mankind it was necessary for Jesus Christ to become a man and willingly submit Himself to the will of the First Person of the trinity - the Father. His subjection to the Father was simply part of the predetermined plan of God (Acts 2:23). As already shown, Jesus is of the same substance, essence, nature as the Father and the Holy Spirit and is therefore equal with them. God is one in essence, and three in Person. God is a UNITED One. United in essence and in purpose. Yet three distinct Persons.
Last edited by Michael Way; 10-25-2011 at 01:09 AM..
Since we have never had the ORIGINAL AUTOGRAPHS of scripture and ignore many other scriptures that aren't contained within todays bible...you CAN'T PROVE anything...all you can provide is heresay speculation...which wouldn't even be acceptable in a court of law as any kind of proof. So...SPECULATE AWAY!!!
There are actually three witnesses (gospel writers).
Only 2 witnesses are required per the Bible.
Just as 2 persons of the Trinity are witnesses for the third.
Today, Jesus is being used to justify just about everything out there. People add "in Jesus' name" at the end of whatever they want, and expect Jesus to be on their side.
That's why I believe that Jesus IS righteousness. That is, if a person does what is righteous, he is righteous, and is like Jesus. No matter who you are, or what religion you tout, righteous action is clearly discerned from unrighteous action. Lying is lying, even if "in Jesus' name." Stealing is stealing, even if "in Jesus' name." Extortion is extortion, even if done "in Jesus' name."
Likewise, if you give a hungry soul food, you are righteous. If you heal the wounds of a hurting person, you are righteous. If you love your enemies even unto death, you are righteous.
Only the undiscerning will be deceived to think otherwise..
Blessings,
brian
Nice post Brian! This is exactly what Jesus taught...that the Kingdom is available to EVERYONE...they just have to look WITHIN.
Is Jesus a created Being? If so prove it using Scripture.
It is possible, Jesus said he comes from the Father
John 16:28 we can find a parallel for all things in Romans 11:36
Quote:
Is Jesus God or God the Son? If so prove it using Scripture.
We must be aware of a couple of things, first, Jesus can be God and his Son at the same time when we understand the "nature" of it.
Is Jesus God in terms of being the exact same being? No, be cause if he was the exact same being, then Jesus sent himself and he is his own father.
In terms of what Jesus said "if you have seen me you have seen the father" then we can understand it in conceptual terms that Jesus is doing the will of the father to such a degree it is as if God the father is doing it himself.
The second thing that we can understand that goes along with my first answer is that Jesus being created or not is irrelevant to the power in which the Father has bestowed upon Jesus. Jesus has just as much capacity to be our Saviour as the Son of God that has always existed or whether he was a created being.
With that said, the term "son" cannot really be used for something that has always existed in equality, for God to have a son, it implies offspring, your offspring could not have always existed.
John 10:30 Being one with something does not imply being the same entity.
John 14:28. Jesus can't be the same entity when there is a separation of greatness.
Nice post Brian! This is exactly what Jesus taught...that the Kingdom is available to EVERYONE...they just have to look WITHIN.
Thank you, Christy. It has been my experience in different churches, that the "Jesus" that people talk about is quite illusive. Until you know their own political agenda, you can never tell just what type of Jesus they are talking about. Actions speak louder than words, and righteous actions are indications of nothing other than righteousness, aisi..
Likewise, wickedness, even if done "in Jesus' name," is still wickedness. Therefore, it has nothing at all to do with Jesus, who is our Righteousness.
Just a reminder guys..The op asked a legitimate question in this forum and did not intend to start a debate on the validity of the bible as he asked for proof according to scripture from the bible
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