Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte
NOTE: It is NOT my intention to start another debate in here on UR vs ET.
But for those who lurk here and are trying to make up their minds on which is the true theology, I can do no greater a service than direct them to the website below which, of all the material I have read here on the Internet on both UR and ET, is absolutely the most comprehensive, overarching debate between two individuals, one from each camp, on what is undoubtedly the thorniest issue in the Bible, bar none. It is conducted just like a live debate would be. Each man gives an opening statement of their belief and the Biblical foundation for it and then each man addresses each others questions, objections, etc.
I will say that I had temporarily veered off UR and gone back to annihilationism for a short period but reading this debate has renewed my faith in God's absolute determination to save every last human. I will say, and I hope I am non-partial when I say this, that the UR proponent totally blows the ET'er out of the water and you will see why when you read Logos_x's (aka Stephen) posts #3, 8 & especially 12. I am still reading the debate but I can say that up to this point it is absolutely riveting, glue-you-to-your-seat stuff. Just a preview---logos_x asks Kevin (ET proponent) 24 questions which no ET'er could answer without admitting that their doctrine is fatally flawed. Here are 12 of them:
I hope many of you get as much pleasure (and learning) out of reading this debate as I did. be warned: it is long, but well worth the effort. Enjoy! 
BR XII - Will Unbelievers Spend Eternity in the Lake of Fire? - Theology Forum | Christian Theology & More |
These questions are easily answered by any believer with knowledge of Bible doctrine.
1] Do they believe the fire in I Cor.3:15 burns mans’ works, but not the man himself? Yes.
But do they teach that this same fire in Rev.20:15 also burns works, not the man? No.
Answer: These are two different judgments. The judgment in
1 Cor 3:15 refers to the judgment seat of Christ for BELIEVERS which takes place after the rapture of the Church. The purpose is to evaluate the believer's works for the purpose of reward. Any works which are wood, hay, and stubble will be burned up. But any works that are gold, silver and precious stones will be rewarded.
The judgment in
Rev 20:15 is the final judgment for all unbelievers. The unbeliever is there because he did not receive Christ as Savior. Since all sin was already judged when Christ died for those sins, the unbeliever cannot be judged for them. His punishment will be based on his works since they are the production of his human righteousness which God always rejects since human righteousness can not measure up to God's perfect Righteousness. Having rejected the work of Christ on the cross, the unbeliever can only stand on his own works, and is therefore condemned to eternity in hell on the basis of those works.
2] Do they believe that God is absolutely and totally sovereign (Eph. 1:11)? Yes.
But do they teach that God exercises sovereignty over man’s supposed "free" will? No.
Answer: God is sovereign. But in order for man to be able to exercise the volition which God gave him, God allows man to make decisions which are contrary to His will. Any honest person will admit that man makes decisions which are not in keeping with God's will. The Bible is full of such examples.
3] Do they believe that Jesus came to destroy all the works of the Devil? Yes
Do they believe He will? No.
Answer: The believer is free from slavery to sin. If he gives himself over to sin, he does so by his own choice. At the cross Jesus won the stategic victory over Satan, but Satan is still fighting. He will be confined forever to the lake of fire at the end of the Millennium, along with every member of the human race who did not receive Christ as Savior.
I John 3:8 in no way implies that sin will not exist in hell. But it will be confined to hell. The whole world (of unbelievers) is under the control of Satan
(1 John 5:19). But the believers new nature
( 1 John 5:18) is inherently sinless. In order to sin, the believer must give himself over to his old sin nature which he still has. In other words, the believer in fellowship can't sin. He has to give in to temptation which comes from his old sin nature. This puts him out of fellowship and in need of the principle of
1 John 1:9 in order to recover the filling of the Holy Spirit.
4] Do they believe that Jesus Christ IS the Saviour of the whole world (I Jn 4:14)? Yes.
But do they teach that Jesus Christ will SAVE the whole world? No.[/QUOTE}
Answer: This has been answered many times and is a tired old argument. Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world because He paid for the sins of the entire world. But as Jesus said, ''I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you shall die in your sins.''
(John 8:24).
Why is it that you Unversalists ignore all the passages which make it plain that a volitional decision is required on the part of man to believe in Christ for eternal salvation?
John 3:16; John 3:36; Acts 16:31 for a few examples.
5] Do they believe that presently Christ only has immortality (I Tim. 6:16)? Yes.
But do they teach the truth therefore that men’s souls are mortal and not immortal? No.
Answer: This can be approached in two ways. 1) Jesus Christ as God has
intrinsic immortality, while God has
made man's soul immortal. 2) Jesus Christ currently is the only member of the human race who has been resurrected. His resurrection body is immortal.
6] Do they believe that the soul that sins shall DIE (Ezek. 18:4)? Yes.
But do they teach that souls of deceased sinners are actually DEAD? No.
Answer: The Bible speaks of different kinds of death. There is the physical death of the body in which the soul separates from the body. There is spiritual death in which the unbeliever is spiritually separated from God - no relationship with God. There is the second death in which the unbeliever is eternally separated from God. It is the perpetuation of spiritual death through all eternity future. There is sexual death. There is temporal death which is the believer out of fellowship with God through sin.
Ths soul is immortal and cannot die. That the soul survives the death of the body is clearly seen in
Matthew 10:28). And in
Luke 16:19-31.
7] Do they believe ALL God purposed, spoke, and willed (Isa. 46:10-11), He will do? Yes.
But do they teach that God’s "will" to save all, I Tim. 2:4, etc., will be done? No.
Answer: Again, another tired old argument which has been answered many times. God desires that all men be saved, but because God has made human volition the issue in salvation, God cannot interfere with man's volition in the matter. It is God's purpose to save all who place their faith in Christ for eternal salvation, and to leave in eternal condemnation all who do not receive Christ as Savior.
BIG ONE!
8] Do they believe that the last enemy to be destroyed [Gk: abolished] is death? Yes.
But do they teach that ALL death, including the second death, will be abolished? No.
Answer: The last enemy to be destroyed is physical death, not the second death. Physical death is destroyed by the resurrection. Even unbelievers will be resurrected. And in their resurrected bodies they will be confined to the lake of fire forever.
(Daniel 12:2; Rev 20:11-15).
9] Do they believe that all things are possible with God (Mark 10:27)? Yes.
But do they teach that it is possible for God to save nonbelievers after they die? No.
Answer: God cannot do anything which is inconsistant with His nature. God cannot change His plan once He has decreed it. After death comes judgment
(Luke 16:19-31; Heb 9:27).
10] Do they believe that God’s love will never fail (I Cor. 13:8)? Yes.
But do they teach that God’s love will never fail in saving the world He loves? No.
Answer: Just as God's love never fails, neither does God's Justice ever fail. It is not God's love which made eternal salvation possible. God's love could only motivate God to provide salvation. It was God's Justice that made salvation possible by judically imputing mans sins to Christ and then God judging those sins on Christ. It is God's Justice that requires God to leave under eternal condemnation all who refuse God's offer of salvation.
11] Do they believe that loving our enemies means doing good and not evil to them? Yes.
But do they teach that God will never subject His enemies to eternal torture and evil? No.
Answer: The Bible is clear that those who have rejected Christ as Savior will be sentenced to the eternal fire
(Matthew 25:41; Rev 20:11-15; 2 Thess 1:9) It is a case of Justice, not love, except that God loves His holiness above all else.
12] Do they believe that Jesus' death took all sin away? Yes
Do they believe all sin is taken away? No.
Answer: God does not hold our sins against us. But sin still exists in the world, and will exist forever in hell. The issue in salvation is not sin. That was paid for. The only issue in salvation is whether a person will place their faith in Christ for salvation.
For anyone who IS wondering what the Bible teaches, if you are honest with yourself you will take seriously the passages that state straight out that the unbeliever faces eternal separation from God in the place commonly referred to by most as hell.
(Matt 25:41,46; 2 Thess 1:9; Rev 20:11-15) to name a few.
The Universalist routinely sets aside God's holiness and focuses only on God's love. He will say that a loving God could never sentence anyone to hell. God sentenced Satan and the fallen angels to the lake of fire, and that sentence will be carried out at the end of the Millennium
(Rev 2:10). And as
Matthew 25:41,45 makes clear, unregenerate mankind will join Satan and the fallen angels in hell.
In order to refute the clear teaching of Scripture, the Universalist has to resort to ignoring certain passages, or trying to explain them away. He has to take other passages out of context and attempt to pit them against the passages which declare the unbelievers punishment in hell.
Your choice is whether you will believe the Bible or if you will disregard God's holiness in favor of His love and make the same claim that Satan probably made when God sentenced him to eternity in the lake of fire. ''How can a loving God put His creatures into hell"? The answer to that is that on the basis of His holiness, He has to judge sin and evil, and the only sentence that can satisfy an offense against infinite God is an infinite sentence of eternal separation from Him with the attendant suffering which is involved.
Reality or delusion!!! Biblically revealed truth or Universalism. Which will you choose????
Universalists will try to refute what I have said in this post. I will not waste my time replying to them as it is a waste of time. Most Universalists have no interest in Biblically revealed truth. They care only about trying to convince people either that everyone is already saved, or that everyone will eventually be saved. It depends on what kind of Universalist they are.
If you are someone who is trying to understand what the Bible says about the eternal punishment of the unbeliever, the Bible is clear on the matter. The question is whether you can accept the truth or if you prefer delusion to reality.
Country Bible Church - Brenham, TX
Class Catalog - Joe Griffin Media Ministries
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Good question thrillobyte!
